Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#394594
February 15, 2013 06:17 am UTC
February 15, 2013 06:17 am UTC
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,808 Ontario, Canada
Salomon Ponte
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Haven't actually had the Talon on a road course yet, but I have autox'ed it in addition to plenty of that nonsense straight line stuff. In my Mazda (3 Sport) I've got a number of summers and quite a few events under my belt. Mainly Mosport DDT and Shannonville. Either SRTA lapping events or the ones Shannonville puts on independently as well as some other stuff. I didn't get to hit the track (not a road course, anyway) at all last summer due to financial issues but in the 2 summers prior to that I probably put on about 1500+km on my Mazda at the aforementioned events/locations. Im pretty confident in my build and will put my money on this car and a good driver any day.
If you're too chicken to do it, I'll toss her around for you.
Last edited by Salomon Ponte; February 15, 2013 06:18 am UTC.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Rob Cauduro]
#394602
February 15, 2013 06:35 am UTC
February 15, 2013 06:35 am UTC
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,808 Ontario, Canada
Salomon Ponte
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Im not opposed, to it, as long as Im in the passenger seat I wouldnt say Im chicken though. Im a pretty aggressive driver, and confident I'll be one with my machine after some good one on one time. Knowing the ins and outs of your car really is a huge part of it. A good driver will be able to take any car and put up a good (relative) time, but knowing all the nuances will truly allow you to focus on driving the track, and not driving the car. If I were to drive her, I don't think I could rightly kick you out of your own car even if I wanted to (not that I would). Hahaha...I'm always good to go for sit-alongs as well to aid with pointers and what-not, although my abilities in the driver seat do not translate well to in-car coaching. Teaching is not my forte. What scares me is suspension tuning. Think engine tuning is hard to get your head around? Man oh man, thats noting compared to setting up a complete overhauled suspension. Every change and adjustment affects everything else. How do you begin!! ??
The more I read and research, the more I cringe! Suspension setup is INSANE. I want to learn the ins and outs of it and really set up a monster, but there is SO much to know and so much to test/adjust/etc. Given my student budget, I've never had a car with adjustable anything except sway bars, so I've never really had much to tinker around with. I do look forward to the day, though, as much as I dread it.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#394609
February 15, 2013 01:15 pm UTC
February 15, 2013 01:15 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,749 Belleville, Ontario
Ryan Laliberte
No-Lift-To-Shift.... Stock. :)
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No-Lift-To-Shift.... Stock. :)
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Posts: 10,749
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This is what Sam and I are using the WRX for. Hoping to get some tires for it this year and start to learn what the car can do in stock form around the circuit track.
AWDAuto 1996 TSi AWD Automagic12.24 @ 113 - Small 16G FP Green HTA - 11.42/123 Team Pump Gas and Meth RTMRacing - Your Canadian source for DSM Parts "Every moment you live is pregnant with the next moment of your life" --Jim CarreyLast Login: September 28, 2021
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#394613
February 15, 2013 01:35 pm UTC
February 15, 2013 01:35 pm UTC
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,808 Ontario, Canada
Salomon Ponte
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Last summer was a right off for me also for lapping days because i was away so much for work. This year i will likely do more but the costs do get up there with tires, fuel and entrance fees.
I keep telling Rob his car will scare the crap out of him all year long till he builds up the confidence to drive it near its potential.
Riding shot gun makes me sick. I hate ride alongs. It does add up. And in the Talon it's going to be WAY worse for gas. 94 and it'll drink it like no tomorrow. At least in my Mazda I can get probably ~150km driving at the limit. I'd probably get half that in the Talon. Gas+Food+Tracking Fees = $250 on the best of days. I've been itching to try the Mosport Big Track...now that I actually have a car with some power I can finally justify it. Except Big Track lapping days are like $350-$500, usually, just for the lapping fees. Before I get to mention it - HEEL-TOE. Everyone should teach themselves this and master it. Just make sure you're not accidentally pressing the brakes less (than you would if you were only braking) when you do it, as most people tend to do without realizing it.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#394622
February 15, 2013 03:03 pm UTC
February 15, 2013 03:03 pm UTC
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,808 Ontario, Canada
Salomon Ponte
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To add to this. Copied from this post here: http://www.ca.dsm.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=394621&#Post394621 As for everything else, don't blame lap times on the car. Go out there, and drive your car until you've not only reached the max potential of its current settings but have also developed enough as a driver to be aware of everything and able to properly translate a lapping day into knowing what kind of adjustments need to be made. This comment is more aimed at suspension/handling/dynamic adjustments but just in general. Experiment more with stuff like early/late/trail braking, heel-toe, throttle control, line of attack, etc. THESE will make you a better driver. Don't be afraid to spin your car out or lose control. If you drive with fear, you will never drive well.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Rob Cauduro]
#394648
February 15, 2013 06:11 pm UTC
February 15, 2013 06:11 pm UTC
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,808 Ontario, Canada
Salomon Ponte
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Before I get to mention it - HEEL-TOE. Everyone should teach themselves this and master it. Just make sure you're not accidentally pressing the brakes less (than you would if you were only braking) when you do it, as most people tend to do without realizing it.
Ive been practicing this in my daily drivers while getting around town, and taking off ramps and such. Well F me, this is the hardest thing Ive ever had to practice. I still suck after a year of trying it every other day. Pedal location is a BIG one. I find it hard to do reliably in my Talon but extremely easy in my Mazda. In my Talon I wear my workboots so I get a bit wider base to even be able to do it at all as the gas and brake are too far for me. I may have to weld on an extra piece or machine some sort of extension, because I had my foot slip off during a heel-toe while auto-xing and it almost got messy very quickly. When I got my Mazda, I had never driven standard - my dad threw me the keys and said go for it. I knew the entire process, but only in theory. I told myself from day 1 I would ALWAYS rev-match, and I always have; never do I ever slip the clutch to downshift. That is the first step in being able to heel-toe. After that it was just getting used to braking and pressing gas at the same time and further to that, the right amount of brake/gas modulation. I heel-toe/rev-match all my downshifts on a daily basis, the more you do it, the better you'll get it. It just takes practice, like any aspect of becoming a good driver. But like I said, make sure you can confidently and comfortably rev-match downshift before venturing into heel-toe. If someone has a GoPro they want to lend (2 would be even better), I can make a video showing it, although there are plenty out there. Or you're all welcome to come for a ride, although you won't be able to see much of my feet. I saw that, but I'm going to be doing my best to make it there with my Talon this summer. The Mazda has seen better days and will need some coin dropped into it if I'm going to feel comfortable beating it as hard as I do. Coin that I'd sooner drop into the Talon. I have a question. What are the guys with DSM's who track their cars doing for heat soak problems?
Im on the fence about putting vents in my hood. Even with ceramic coated exhaust components and blankets, Im worried Im gonna melt stuff.
Its not like drag racing when your done in a few seconds, beating your car up for 20 or more minutes at a time can get it pretty hot! This is why I haven't tracked her yet. My temps rise a lot even after a pass down the 1/4 mile. Doing the Auto-X at the SO this past summer was hard enough on my temps. I'm planning to do extensive ducting in/around/through the front bumper, but after that I don't know what else to do. Also hoping to install some custom brake cooling ducts through my front fog light holes, since these cars are heavy and the brakes only so-so. We need to ask Scott Mcintyre (SP?). I know he extensively tracks his 2G and has done a lot to make it reliable and trackworthy. Anyone talk to him?
Last edited by Salomon Ponte; February 15, 2013 06:17 pm UTC.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#394685
February 15, 2013 10:03 pm UTC
February 15, 2013 10:03 pm UTC
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,808 Ontario, Canada
Salomon Ponte
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What scares me is suspension tuning. Think engine tuning is hard to get your head around? Man oh man, thats noting compared to setting up a complete overhauled suspension. Every change and adjustment affects everything else. How do you begin!! ??
The more I read and research, the more I cringe! You need some of that fancy gold heat reflective tape. This guy came up with a wicked solution. http://www.dsmlink.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54543&highlight=gurney Had this in my saved threads - completely forgot about it, though. Going to be working on getting the air to/through the rad first, and then focus on what happens after that, as right now I feel like my FMIC is blocking WAY too much of the air flow to the rad.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#394739
February 16, 2013 12:37 pm UTC
February 16, 2013 12:37 pm UTC
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,503 Trenton, On, Canada.
Ghislain Goudreau
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GoPro could be made available.
Rouge!!!
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#395242
February 21, 2013 03:14 am UTC
February 21, 2013 03:14 am UTC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707 ON
Bradley Woodward
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about time we started talking about proper use of a dsm!
Rob, cooling- with a 14b at 18psi I could get away with no major problem, just an aluminum rad upgrade.
with an evo iii 16g at 20psi I get warm after about 20-25 minutes of chasing my buddies miata on a really hot day. I threw in a hood vent for fun and it makes a big difference, keeps the heat away from the fire wall so i stopped melting sh!t! just a touch of water injection would probably make a huge difference, I'll try that next, means i can run more boost. my old engine ran cooler, my new one has blow by which doesn't help temps.
other than that i wrapped all of my exhaust stuff and then made aluminum shields wrapped in heat wrap to replace the oem exhaust shrouds (especially important for the alternator, they melt quick with no protection).
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#395243
February 21, 2013 03:15 am UTC
February 21, 2013 03:15 am UTC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707 ON
Bradley Woodward
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oh, and make sure you remove your air cond radiator
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#395245
February 21, 2013 03:26 am UTC
February 21, 2013 03:26 am UTC
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,808 Ontario, Canada
Salomon Ponte
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about time we started talking about proper use of a dsm!
Rob, cooling- with a 14b at 18psi I could get away with no major problem, just an aluminum rad upgrade.
with an evo iii 16g at 20psi I get warm after about 20-25 minutes of chasing my buddies miata on a really hot day. I threw in a hood vent for fun and it makes a big difference, keeps the heat away from the fire wall so i stopped melting sh!t! just a touch of water injection would probably make a huge difference, I'll try that next, means i can run more boost. my old engine ran cooler, my new one has blow by which doesn't help temps.
other than that i wrapped all of my exhaust stuff and then made aluminum shields wrapped in heat wrap to replace the oem exhaust shrouds (especially important for the alternator, they melt quick with no protection). Funny you mention that, cause my car runs hot with a 14b on the highway or after 1 pass down the drag strip, let alone after lapping. Autox-ing at the SO was the limit of what I could do. I've got an aluminum rad with shroud and dual slim fans. No ducting, currently, but in the works. Thinking of heat wrapping my downpipe in hopes of helping, but I can't imagine that's going to drop my temps down significantly. Oh yah, no AC, no P/S cooler, etc. But, got a VRSF FMIC which probably blocks most, if not all of my airflow to the rad, hence my push for ducting.
Last edited by Salomon Ponte; February 21, 2013 03:28 am UTC.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#395246
February 21, 2013 03:34 am UTC
February 21, 2013 03:34 am UTC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707 ON
Bradley Woodward
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also best $ spent on dsm handling is fr/rr rmdsm sway bars. makes the car pretty neutral in most conditions and is a good base to work from.
from there camber/caster/toe oh wait you can't do that:) max caster you can get is $$$, makes huge difference but is difficult on oem dsms, especially since dsm's like the minimum front camber you can get away with (due probably to awd, maybe track width too?). I played around a lot and found any thing over 2 deg fr camber made for loss of front traction under power and nasty road manners to boot.
but for those of us with some extra caster laying around and improved camber curve...2 deg is more than enough (works well for autox, have't tried it on the track, may want a bit less). I'm still on stock shocks/dampers though so things could change a bit on stiffer springs
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#395251
February 21, 2013 03:50 am UTC
February 21, 2013 03:50 am UTC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707 ON
Bradley Woodward
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hmm, wrapping down pipe and ducting is important, also make sure no exhaust leaks up there.
Those slim fans are complete garbage, get OEM shrouded ones if you can.
If you are running that hot in a drag or autocross on a 14b (assuming you don't have it set way outside of its efficiency range) you've got a fundamental problem. The OEM system should have no problem with that.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#395253
February 21, 2013 03:58 am UTC
February 21, 2013 03:58 am UTC
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,808 Ontario, Canada
Salomon Ponte
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hmm, wrapping down pipe and ducting is important, also make sure no exhaust leaks up there.
Those slim fans are complete garbage, get OEM shrouded ones if you can.
If you are running that hot in a drag or autocross on a 14b (assuming you don't have it set way outside of its efficiency range) you've got a fundamental problem. The OEM system should have no problem with that. Wrapping the downpipe will be done very soon, as will ducting. I think I still have one of the OE fans (the car only had one on it when I got it) but not the other. I'd like to pick up some FAL or SPAL fans but they are pricey! I think the biggest part of my problem is airflow, because even on the highway she runs pretty warm and I'm really not in boost that much, or not very much boost, although with a 14b it's usually just under 0 vacuum/boost when cruising in the 120's. I've got an E16G now, but that got put on right before the end of the season so haven't really seen any road/course time with it. As for exhaust leaks, I think there may be a very slight one but until I can get a new manifold (and ideally turbine housing), it will never seal 100% perfectly.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#395258
February 21, 2013 04:58 am UTC
February 21, 2013 04:58 am UTC
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,809 Ottawa, ON
Mike Eng
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Do you really think the oem shrouds pull better air then let's say a mishimoto shroud kit? Like this one; Also, when running a road coarse, wouldn't it be a good idea to run "fans full time" using link v3? I sometimes do it on really hot days and it helps keep the temps in the 180*-190* mark.
Last edited by Mike Eng; February 21, 2013 05:11 am UTC.
'99 GSX GT35R '03 CBR 600RR
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Eng]
#395259
February 21, 2013 05:03 am UTC
February 21, 2013 05:03 am UTC
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,808 Ontario, Canada
Salomon Ponte
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Do you really think the oem shrouds pull better air then let's say a mishimoto shroud kit? Like this one; Also, when running a road coarse, wouldn't it be a good idea to run "fans full time" using link v3? I sometimes do it on really hot days and it helps keep the temps in the 180*-190* mark. I have a pretty much identical setup (aluminum shroud, dual slim fans) and my fans are always on (1Gs use a temp switch, but I wired mine to a toggle switch under my dash, so I keep them on all the time whenever it's hot - ie always). If you're on a road course, definitely keep them on at all times (or using Link, set your temp threshold low, which will effectively keep them on at all times). Wish my temps stayed in the 180-190 mark for anything longer than a split second!
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Eng]
#395265
February 21, 2013 05:12 am UTC
February 21, 2013 05:12 am UTC
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,808 Ontario, Canada
Salomon Ponte
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Ok, and how "important" is an oil cooler would you say? For Autox/drag racing/DD...not too important. For road course/lapping, I'd say very important on a turbocharged car. I know I won't be doing any lapping until I get my oil cooler installed. I'd recommend it for any turbo car in general, but particularly those being driven hard. I don't personally have numbers to back this up, but I'm pretty sure I've seen comparisons done with data and numbers on either Tuners and or ECM forums. Either way, a well placed oil cooler is going to help keep oil temperatures down quite a bit and indirectly (or directly, depending on what kind of OFH, turbo, etc. you have) keep coolant temps down as well. Not to mention, adding the cooler and lines to the system increases oil capacity therefore increasing overall heat capacity of the oil system.
Last edited by Salomon Ponte; February 21, 2013 05:14 am UTC.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#395292
February 21, 2013 02:14 pm UTC
February 21, 2013 02:14 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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I think you have convinced me to grab an oil cooler, I was back and forth about it over the summer, but I think I will pull the trigger after the winter.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#395341
February 21, 2013 08:02 pm UTC
February 21, 2013 08:02 pm UTC
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,349 Windsor
Mike Lane
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I m the guy with a 600 dollar PS3 racing seat/wheel/clutch/shifter setup and likes to play alot of racing! Taking the eclipse to do the cayuga road course was some of the best fun I ve had in life haha. I ve been heel toe shifting it as long as I can remember, and on PS3 too. It is actually easer to heel toe the eclipse than the simulator. I was pleasantly suprised how natural my first time on the track felt! Amazed the eclipse put up with it too, was already burning oil and smoking so I was like eff it and gave it sh!t. Did crazy downshifts and revved the hell out of it and it still trooped on. Makes me that much more excited and driven to keep going at my current build. I too might be scared of my car when I am finished lmao! All my best friends have every intention to race their cars. Rob gripper from here now has his RX8 in tear down after tracking with me, and we blew the engine on the highway. That thing will be nuts too. He wants to turbo it. Between all that and driving supercars in vegas, it sure has been hella awesome graduating from the living room and gran turismo 5 haha.
Last edited by Mike Lane; February 21, 2013 08:05 pm UTC.
98GSX Black:1st car/resto proj 97 acura el stolen/found 99GSX Red RIP 86 turbo ZX, 92 turbo 2000GTX
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#395377
February 21, 2013 11:06 pm UTC
February 21, 2013 11:06 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707 ON
Bradley Woodward
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I run a switch to my fans so I can keep them on all the time,easier then booting up link.
Oil coolers are good insurance but I don't think they are strictly necessary. Your oil and coolant temps are usually pretty close after 10 or 15 minutes. With a coolant to oil cooler your temps should stay in the butter zone as long as you have good coolant temps. Remember that low oil temps are JUST AS BAD as high oil temps, the entire oil system was built to run at 200-210F. A bit lower is OK, but below 190F (thermistat temp) I suspect things will be out of their design range. Ever notice you turbo whines a bit until the car is warm? That is oil viscosity changing with temp!
From what I've heard you are probably better off with a trans cooler (yes for manuals), though again, if your coolant temps are under control your trans temps will be not TOO bad (aluminum bell housing connected to engine means everything runs around the same temp after you get warm) but according to my research spraying cooler oil on the gears will help them not explode.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#395429
February 22, 2013 03:55 am UTC
February 22, 2013 03:55 am UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Interesting Tyler, Never thought of that. I have however wrapped some of my charge pipe with DEI Cool Tape
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#395471
February 22, 2013 03:21 pm UTC
February 22, 2013 03:21 pm UTC
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Posts: 2,152 Pickering
Mike Degli Angeli
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I run a switch to my fans so I can keep them on all the time,easier then booting up link.
Oil coolers are good insurance but I don't think they are strictly necessary. Your oil and coolant temps are usually pretty close after 10 or 15 minutes. With a coolant to oil cooler your temps should stay in the butter zone as long as you have good coolant temps. Remember that low oil temps are JUST AS BAD as high oil temps, the entire oil system was built to run at 200-210F. A bit lower is OK, but below 190F (thermistat temp) I suspect things will be out of their design range. Ever notice you turbo whines a bit until the car is warm? That is oil viscosity changing with temp!
From what I've heard you are probably better off with a trans cooler (yes for manuals), though again, if your coolant temps are under control your trans temps will be not TOO bad (aluminum bell housing connected to engine means everything runs around the same temp after you get warm) but according to my research spraying cooler oil on the gears will help them not explode. I worry about adding the oil cooler to my Mini. Its my Daily during the winter and have the same thought of the oil staying too cold or extend warm up times. I have a thermostat that i would like to put inline for bypassing the oil cooler until required temperature is reached.
Never fear a challenge, Amateurs built the Ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#395516
February 22, 2013 09:24 pm UTC
February 22, 2013 09:24 pm UTC
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,196 Newmarket, Ontario
Daren Peacock
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I've driven aggressivly around the mall parking lot several time, does that count? My turning experience is limited to driving a legends race car around an oval track, 10+ years ago. Looking forward to finally getting out & turning some corners this year. I wanted to get out last summer, but didn't seem to find the time, hopefully this year will be better. Though, I do think I likely now have too much turbo, for any of the tracks I would run on. I can say one thing for sure, I will not be running 35psi on the 82HTA first time on the track
98 Eclipse GSX DSM82HTA
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Re: Lapping Days 2013 & Track Talk
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#395548
February 22, 2013 11:46 pm UTC
February 22, 2013 11:46 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707 ON
Bradley Woodward
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Serious Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707
ON
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You don't have too much power until you can spin the wheels from apex to apex. Then you just need more grip!
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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