Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
#400475
April 18, 2013 03:24 am UTC
April 18, 2013 03:24 am UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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OK, I am trying to install rear shocks and I want to replace the bushings at the same time (urethane). I figured I would just take the knuckles off so I could press the old ones out. Pretty much the only bolts on the car I haven't touched. Not working out so well though.
1. There is one bolt that is like 6" long that won't come out, it hits the gas tank and does not allow me to remove the lower control arm (the one that connects to the sway bar). Do I really have to cut this off?
WTF mitsubishi?
2. My toe control arm bolt seemes to be seized in the inner sleeve (took the nut off but nothing moves). THis has to be fixed to lower the car, also the ball joint boots are toast so will have to be replaced.
Do I have to cut this stupid thing off as well? Pretty much have to cut the arm in to 2 or 3 pieces to get at it. ARGH.
3. ABS sensor seems to be completely seized into the knuckle...cut it?
4. How do I disconnect the parking brake cable...I'm NOT cutting that! Do I take off the disc and go from that side?
Other than that it is going well.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400479
April 18, 2013 03:52 am UTC
April 18, 2013 03:52 am UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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OK, I am trying to install rear shocks and I want to replace the bushings at the same time (urethane). I figured I would just take the knuckles off so I could press the old ones out. Pretty much the only bolts on the car I haven't touched. Not working out so well though.
1. There is one bolt that is like 6" long that won't come out, it hits the gas tank and does not allow me to remove the lower control arm (the one that connects to the sway bar). Do I really have to cut this off?
WTF mitsubishi?
2. My toe control arm bolt seemes to be seized in the inner sleeve (took the nut off but nothing moves). THis has to be fixed to lower the car, also the ball joint boots are toast so will have to be replaced.
Do I have to cut this stupid thing off as well? Pretty much have to cut the arm in to 2 or 3 pieces to get at it. ARGH.
3. ABS sensor seems to be completely seized into the knuckle...cut it?
4. How do I disconnect the parking brake cable...I'm NOT cutting that! Do I take off the disc and go from that side?
Other than that it is going well. So what you're saying is you should have left the wheels on and the car on the ground and stayed happily oblivious to the disaster that lay underneath. A lot of those issues seem to be pretty common to 2Gs, based on the stuff I've read/seen over the years.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400481
April 18, 2013 04:04 am UTC
April 18, 2013 04:04 am UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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Yeah, except I have to be able to adjust toe to lower it and there is no way I am putting on my new suspension on almost 20 year old bushings.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400512
April 18, 2013 02:50 pm UTC
April 18, 2013 02:50 pm UTC
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Rob Cauduro
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theres no way around cutting those bolts, and buying new ones. Been there, done that.
My toe sleeve was seized as well. Heat, wd-40, more heat, lots of bashing. New bolts will be needed as well. Ziggy stocks them.
Parking brake cable comes off when you remove the bearing hub from the knuckle, you can then get inside the inner workings of the parking brake assembly and take it off. The cable steel sleeve that leads into the mechanism will most likely be rusted to the hub plate, pound it out.
Ill give you my next pay check if you can get an ABS sensor out without bashing it out.
Good luck
Last edited by Rob Cauduro; April 18, 2013 02:58 pm UTC.
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400516
April 18, 2013 06:05 pm UTC
April 18, 2013 06:05 pm UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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Thanks for the tips.
Just to confirm Rob, I have to remove the bearing flange (i.e. remove the bolts on the inboard side of the upright) in order to remove the hand brake cable?
I'm going to see if I can drop the rear sub frame to remove the long bolts tonight (that seems to be what the Mitsu manual says to do), otherwise the CHOP.
Johnny do you have the part numbers you used (and where you got them from) for those arms? Or at least make and model year. I don't feel like standing around in a parts store for 2 hours test fitting parts...would make toe adjustment a LOT easier!
I love my car, I love my car, I love my car.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400517
April 18, 2013 06:06 pm UTC
April 18, 2013 06:06 pm UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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Oh and my ABS sensor exploded when I tried to get it off, so it is already toast.
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400529
April 18, 2013 09:52 pm UTC
April 18, 2013 09:52 pm UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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Johnny, All I can find are toe links that have threaded ends, none with the threaded rod like the ones you showed. I don't think I could find tie rod ends to fit them, also they are like $90 each from partsource. The wrong ones
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400532
April 18, 2013 10:06 pm UTC
April 18, 2013 10:06 pm UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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did you look at the link though? These ones have no threaded rod. So while they would work fine for their intended purpose they wouldn't work here.
How long ago did you get these? You said you got them from CT?
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400561
April 19, 2013 12:39 am UTC
April 19, 2013 12:39 am UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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I think the confusion is that when I try to buy the intrepid arms they look like the ones in the link I posted(which are wrong).
So where and when did you get yours, cause I can't find them in that style.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400575
April 19, 2013 02:25 am UTC
April 19, 2013 02:25 am UTC
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Ryan Laliberte
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Speaking from the experience of a guy who's just redone his entire rear from the door jams back....
2G Rear suspension unless it just rolled off the factory floor can be a pain in the ass.
I cut my old bolts out and bought new ones. I also replaced the arms with new OEM. Set it and forget it.
The knuckle bushings are a pisser too. Good luck pressing in the new urethane ones. Make sure you have lots of lube and patience.
AWDAuto 1996 TSi AWD Automagic12.24 @ 113 - Small 16G FP Green HTA - 11.42/123 Team Pump Gas and Meth RTMRacing - Your Canadian source for DSM Parts "Every moment you live is pregnant with the next moment of your life" --Jim CarreyLast Login: September 28, 2021
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Ryan Laliberte]
#400576
April 19, 2013 02:37 am UTC
April 19, 2013 02:37 am UTC
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Rob Cauduro
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The knuckle bushings are a pisser too. Good luck pressing in the new urethane ones. Make sure you have lots of lube and patience.
I'll add that getting the old ones OUT is MUCH more of a PITA than getting the new ones IN Especially the two at the bottom. Trailing arm and toe arm. They are at an angle, and maneuvering the entire knuckle to a position on a press, or mill, trying to get the bore perpendicular to the axis of the press, to hack them out is just Faking awesome, You'll see. Also, dont waste your time on Energy suspension, go prothane, the material is better, and the kit comes with WAY more parts. I had pressed out all the bushings in the knuckles and arms, only to find that the energy kit was missing almost half of them needed. Also, the knuckle bushing for the upper control arm, Definitely use prothane, the engergy bushing is too soft, and from what Ive read, and told from personal experiences, they wear out in a year. I am certain I have a solid 20 hours worth of work in my rear end rebuild. Its just what it is.
Last edited by Rob Cauduro; April 19, 2013 02:49 am UTC.
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400578
April 19, 2013 02:49 am UTC
April 19, 2013 02:49 am UTC
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Ghislain Goudreau
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Hack, cut and burn. That is the only way to fly.
Those 2G Rear Lower Control Arms and related Hardware are not that expensive. Save what can be easily removed and replace the rest.
Like Rob said some of the Rear Knuckle's Bushings and be a pain to remove. Fire would be my choise if I'd have to do this again.
Use lots of lube before you push the new Bushings in.
Ghislain
Rouge!!!
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Ghislain Goudreau]
#400579
April 19, 2013 02:53 am UTC
April 19, 2013 02:53 am UTC
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Rob Cauduro
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Hack, cut and burn. That is the only way to fly.
Those 2G Rear Lower Control Arms and related Hardware are not that expensive. Save what can be easily removed and replace the rest.
Like Rob said some of the Rear Knuckle's Bushings and be a pain to remove. Fire would be my choise if I'd have to do this again.
Use lots of lube before you push the new Bushings in.
Ghislain Fire takes care of the rubber part, but what about the sleeve? They are always welded with rust to the casting of the knuckle. I tried on an arbour press, I ended up going to a manual bridgeport mill, and plunging with a cutter into the side of the sleeve to get it to collapse and fall out. Not fun.....at all.
Last edited by Rob Cauduro; April 19, 2013 02:53 am UTC.
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400586
April 19, 2013 03:35 am UTC
April 19, 2013 03:35 am UTC
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Rob Cauduro
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A 2g lower control arm is very flimsy, the material is actually thinner than the sleeve of the bushing. It would be sketchy to try and burn it out. The knucle however, I agree, torch the thing if u have the means.
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400590
April 19, 2013 03:54 am UTC
April 19, 2013 03:54 am UTC
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Ryan Laliberte
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AWDAuto 1996 TSi AWD Automagic12.24 @ 113 - Small 16G FP Green HTA - 11.42/123 Team Pump Gas and Meth RTMRacing - Your Canadian source for DSM Parts "Every moment you live is pregnant with the next moment of your life" --Jim CarreyLast Login: September 28, 2021
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400600
April 19, 2013 04:43 am UTC
April 19, 2013 04:43 am UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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Thanks for all the tips.
Johnny: ah,that makes sense. Yours are OEM. Not sure I have the patience to go to a wreckers, I may just buy OEM ones.
I got everything off except passenger axle won't come out. Seems like tomorrows problem. Put in a valiant effort to get everything off tonight but whatever. I ended up dropping the subframe to get the long bolts out, it actually came down really easily (rust is not USUALLY an issue on my car). The toe arms I cut off, ABS sensors just smashed until the wire came off, sensor didn't budge!
For the bushings I think I'll just mill them out if the 25 ton press doesn't work. I have a whole bunch of urethane if I'm missing any bushings too!
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400604
April 19, 2013 11:26 am UTC
April 19, 2013 11:26 am UTC
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Jeremy Gilbert
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I've been keeping an eye on this thread because I know I'll be in this position soon. Definitely a lot of great info, as usual!
As for those rear toe links - Brad, I'll be at work tomorrow morning (parts supplier) and I was planning on trying to find a combination that works. You linked a Raybestos part that was built a little bit backwards, but I'll see if ACDelco, Moog, Mevotech, Beck/Arnley, or Dorman offer it with the male threads we're after.
I'll see what I can find, and post up any part numbers/approximate costs if I'm successful.
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Rob Cauduro]
#400620
April 19, 2013 12:17 pm UTC
April 19, 2013 12:17 pm UTC
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Zvonko Vrbatovic
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I got everything off except passenger axle won't come out.
I borrowed this wicked tool a few months back to get the rear axle out of my subaru. It clamped to the hub using your lug nuts, and has a big acme screw that pushes the spline in. Maybe Stephen knows what its called? I have yet to see one in stores. I want one badly to have on hand. This tool was invaluable! something like this ? http://www.foerch.hr/documents/thumbs/-1750202911_20111801082848_150x150_Pad_1_0.png
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400623
April 19, 2013 12:33 pm UTC
April 19, 2013 12:33 pm UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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I looked around on the web last night and it looks like aftermarket pieces for some Hondas (preludes, early accords) might work. They have the same ball joint/bushing combination and look around the same length. Megan racing sells them. Jeremy: I'm thinking easiest would be those backwards intrepid arms with different male threaded tie rod ends. Nifty cross reference here. I just hate the thought of putting new OEM arms on and having to deal with their stupidness next time (I tend to adjust things a lot) http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/Universal_Outer_Tie_Rod_Ends.asp
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Rob Cauduro]
#400626
April 19, 2013 12:40 pm UTC
April 19, 2013 12:40 pm UTC
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Zvonko Vrbatovic
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Same idea but thats a gear "puller".
This tool "pushes" and clamps to the hub face via your lugs. ahhh, now I get it Sorry for the confusion, I dot have any problems with English until it get's technical ( still have to learn the names of tools and technical stuff, hope you guys will bare with me ) When you find that tool, please post a picture of it.
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400632
April 19, 2013 01:19 pm UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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Rob (or anyone): do you know what fails in the ES rear upper control arm bushing? Does the hole just elongate or is it the ears pulling off?
I bought the ES kit years ago and just never did the rear.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400637
April 19, 2013 01:47 pm UTC
April 19, 2013 01:47 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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Pretty sure I have seen that first one at Princess before.
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400639
April 19, 2013 01:58 pm UTC
April 19, 2013 01:58 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
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April 19, 2013 03:08 pm UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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Those things work really well, work best if you tighten it up then hit the screw with a mallet/hammer.
Rob: did you read my question re: what fails on the upper control arm bushing (1 page back before the side track)?
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400643
April 19, 2013 03:26 pm UTC
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Rob Cauduro
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Rob: did you read my question re: what fails on the upper control arm bushing (1 page back before the side track)?
The energy suspension kit upper bushing is not good a enough replacement for that spot, they wear within a year or so. The rubber splits and falls apart from what Ive been told from some one with experience, and from what I read on Tuners. I was suggesting you go with the Prothane kit, its bushings are better for our cars. This of course is assuming your replacing all bushings in the knuckle.
Last edited by Rob Cauduro; April 19, 2013 03:27 pm UTC.
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Stephen Richardson]
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April 19, 2013 06:52 pm UTC
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Ziggy Dietrich
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Lower quality one's will.. The trick is if siezed that bad you tightend the sh!t out of the axle nut that frees up the rust. I once had one of those cheaper slidehammers pull the threads in mid swing put my hand and the tool threw the window of the car beside me.
I used a small slide hammer in my trade also, and I made my own. I decided to "improve" upon the one I copied by making the area the slide works against much larger, same diameter as the sliding weight. Very first swing I pinched my flesh in there and had quite a red spot for quite some time. Needless to say, I undid my "improvement"
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
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April 19, 2013 10:10 pm UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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Insert end mill makes quick work of the bushings!
Johnny, any luck on the frankenstein toe arm?
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400712
April 20, 2013 12:29 am UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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My bad Johnny, it was Jeremy that was going to look for mating pieces to frankenstein a toe link out of part store parts. I'd love to stand in a parts source for an hour and open every box and try to fit things together but somehow I think I would wear out my welcome. An insert end mill is an end mill that uses indexible carbide inserts. With a nice tough insert material it will go through anything without the worry of chipping or breaking if you don't have the right speeds or no coolant or whatever. Makes sparks, smokes, bangs, smashes. You get a strong edge from the insert with the strength/fracture resistance of a tool steel shank. I use it like a sawzall...Rob would probably not approve. I used to break end mills all the time with fab work (nothing is ever straight, always chattery etc), the inserts seem to be indestructable. http://cfnewsads.thomasnet.com/images/large/029/29954.jpg
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
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April 20, 2013 12:31 am UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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Hydraulic press with about 5t got the first two bushings out of the knuckle, the last one is at a weird angle so I poped out the centre metal piece using a bolt and some washers then clamped it in a vice and plunged the insert endmill in a couple places to cut the outer ring and it poped out. Took all of 5 minutes.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
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April 20, 2013 04:53 am UTC
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Finally got the other knuckle off. Only one problem...its still connected to the axle! I tried an axle pusher+mallet+tightening and loosening it, everything but heat, for about 5 hours and it moved about 1mm.
I'm hoping I'll find a way to mount it in my press to get it out, otherwise I'll just drill the fugger out and get a new one.
Can't wait until the next time I do this and it comes out all coated in copper.
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400759
April 20, 2013 06:21 pm UTC
April 20, 2013 06:21 pm UTC
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Jeremy Gilbert
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Okay, good news/bad news. Bad news: we were swamped. One guy had back problems and didn't show up at all. The other slept through his alarm and showed up late. The first bit, I was alone I barely had any time to look into these, but what I did find was that Moog has the same design as the Raybestos one. Mevotech generally copies Moog. I can look into Beck/Arnley and ACDelco from home (and will do so). We had nothing in stock for me to play with, and I didn't have time to check my warehouses (but I'm sure one will have them). Oh... and I lied. No good news
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400770
April 20, 2013 08:07 pm UTC
April 20, 2013 08:07 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707 ON
Bradley Woodward
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OP
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707
ON
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Well my good news is that my press goes up to 35t, even though it is only rated for 25t. It spit oil all over the place but the axle came out. I ended removing the CV boot and splitting the axle as suggested so I could get it in the press.
Now just need to make a custom upper bushing and figure out this toe arm thing.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400840
April 21, 2013 02:29 pm UTC
April 21, 2013 02:29 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707 ON
Bradley Woodward
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Posts: 707
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Yeah, I'll just turn down the end of the thread where it is fubar'd, no way the nut is going on as it is.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400879
April 21, 2013 10:46 pm UTC
April 21, 2013 10:46 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707 ON
Bradley Woodward
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OP
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Bushings are on, I sandblasted any rust and will paint today/tomorrow. Installation is the reverse of removal;)
I see the light! Thank you all for you inspiration along the way. Hopefully Jeremy comes through and we can ditch the stupid OEM toe control arm.
BTW if anyone is ever doing this I'll help you out by pressing the old bushings out on my hydraulic press. You'd be insane to do it any other way.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400913
April 22, 2013 01:41 am UTC
April 22, 2013 01:41 am UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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Bradley, I assume that means that when we do our cruise this summer that you will be joining us. We cruise through the hamilton ring on our way to cayuga or just on our way to ancaster.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#400914
April 22, 2013 01:51 am UTC
April 22, 2013 01:51 am UTC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707 ON
Bradley Woodward
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We'll see. I joined up a couple years ago, harder now with two young kids!
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#401736
April 30, 2013 03:42 am UTC
April 30, 2013 03:42 am UTC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707 ON
Bradley Woodward
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Alright first drive around the block tonight!
For the toe arms this is what I ended up doing:
Rear toe control arms from a '00 intrepid (brand Mevotech). This has a ~1" bar with female threads on both ends (one right hand one left hand thread), both M18x1.5. Each end has a threaded in bushing. I shortened the bar by a bit on either end and threw out the right hand thread one.
I bought a tie rod end from a '95 talon which has a female M14x1.5 thread. I made an adapter which is M14 to M18 male to male to attach the tie rod end (material is 17-4 which is high strength heat treatable stainless steel). Overall length is about 13" with some adjustment on either end.
I also made spacers to go on either side of the bushing to fit the actual space available (80mm width) and reduce the bushing bore down to a 12mm bolt.
Final piece you need is the washers that go on the frame side of the car. I made my out of 3/16" aluminum, they are round approx 32mm OD with the sides flattened. I believe you could just use the OEM ones there if you wanted.
I originally tried a male tie rod end for a '95 intrepid but the taper on it was not the right angle (note ours is a 7degree angle), my adapter that I made spaced it too far away from the arm and when I tightened the nut it broke the thread off at the pin hole. If another male ended tie rod end could be found with the right thread then it would make everything a lot easier.
Adjustment was easy and it looks trick.
Last edited by Bradley Woodward; April 30, 2013 03:43 am UTC.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#401770
April 30, 2013 08:21 pm UTC
April 30, 2013 08:21 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 707 ON
Bradley Woodward
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I don't like getting junk yard parts and using them, so I wanted something I could buy new. The Arms you used, Johnny, when you buy them after market they are female rather then male ended, so that screws everything up.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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