Design Project Ideas
#400480
April 18, 2013 03:58 am UTC
April 18, 2013 03:58 am UTC
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,808 Ontario, Canada
Salomon Ponte
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As some of you may know, I'm currently studying mechanical engineering at the University of Waterloo. I will be going into my final year come Fall and as part of my credit/course requirements, it is necessary that I do a design project. This being the case, I want it to be automotive related. Originally I was going to do something for the Formula SAE team but I've decided I want to do something for my own vehicle(s) or just something interesting in general. So, if any of you have any project ideas (remember, I will have 6 full courses in the Fall as well as other commitments, so it needs to be somewhat reasonable in scope) that would be cool to see/try/test on a DSM or otherwise (I have a '69 Malibu as well), let me know. Powertrain (and to a lesser extent, drivetrain) is what interests me most, but vehicle dynamics, aerodynamics, etc. are definite possibilities as well. If I do decide on a project sooner, I can start getting the wheels turning and so I'd like to at least get an idea of what I want to do. Low budget is also ideal! We also have an engine dyno here Possible topics: - Some sort of engine development - Turbo technologies/development - Proper development and aerodynamic analysis of front aero/ducting/etc. for the Talon (a la Andrew Brilliant for the 2G).
Last edited by Salomon Ponte; April 18, 2013 04:00 am UTC.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#400501
April 18, 2013 12:33 pm UTC
April 18, 2013 12:33 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2002
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Mike Degli Angeli
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A 1g billet DSM front knuckle that converts it to a 2g/EVO wheel bearing, evo caliper and to use evo suspension. Correcting all suspension geometry for being lowered, bump steer, roll center and full suspension travel.
A 1g could use evo suspension all the way around if this was designed. Its on my to do list.
I have a 1g knuckle, a evo knuckle, wheel bearing, evo rotor, evo caliper all for mock up and measurements.
As for a design project which i'm sure you'll have to write a report for you cover the FEA in stress analysis of the design, the correction of the suspension design operating outside of OEM specifications, braking ability and making use of updated technologies form the EVO suspension.
Never fear a challenge, Amateurs built the Ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#400549
April 18, 2013 11:38 pm UTC
April 18, 2013 11:38 pm UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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Variable vane turbo. I know it's been done, but if you could simplify the concept, then we might be getting somewhere. PM me because I have some interesting ideas.
This has actually been one (of many) thing I've considered and have read up a bit into, although not on any sort of extensive level. I'll shoot you a PM to see what you've got in mind. center clutch system.. to be able to disengage and engage the rear wheels while driving. Ken block and tanner foust have it in their realy fun awd fiestas.
Or a 30-70 split center dif. Would be pretty cool/sweet to try. I'll add it to the list, although I think this would be more along the lines of a 'tinker at home' kind of project for myself. A 1g billet DSM front knuckle that converts it to a 2g/EVO wheel bearing, evo caliper and to use evo suspension. Correcting all suspension geometry for being lowered, bump steer, roll center and full suspension travel.
A 1g could use evo suspension all the way around if this was designed. Its on my to do list.
I have a 1g knuckle, a evo knuckle, wheel bearing, evo rotor, evo caliper all for mock up and measurements.
As for a design project which i'm sure you'll have to write a report for you cover the FEA in stress analysis of the design, the correction of the suspension design operating outside of OEM specifications, braking ability and making use of updated technologies form the EVO suspension. It's funny, because I have thought about this (although not as indepth-ly as you clearly have) numerous times before and just in the past few days have been looking up 1G/Evo suspension combinations (as a number of people have done it...the issues is actually more with the rear than the front, at least in terms of mounting) and what-not. I'm VERY interested in this idea and will be in touch with you. I know embarrassingly little about suspension/vehicle dynamics but it is something I have been itching to really delve into, as I'm a road course guy and this stuff makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. If you (or anyone here) has any good books/sources to learn more then feel free to pass them on. I don't have to start doing anything (officially) for this until Fall term begins, but I'd like to pick my project within the next few months and get a good grasp on it so I'm not rushing to do it last minute come Fall, when I've got a full course load. Having the summer will also give me lots of time to learn all the stuff I'll need to know. As for a report, there will be a huge one, including a presentation for some of the profs (this is a report course). I don't currently know FEA (or CFD), but I am enrolled in both of those courses come Fall. That being said, I would love to learn it sooner! Mike, expect a PM.
Last edited by Salomon Ponte; April 18, 2013 11:39 pm UTC.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Johnny Larmond]
#400553
April 18, 2013 11:42 pm UTC
April 18, 2013 11:42 pm UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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Awwww, no PM for me lol I like the centre clutch idea. Read again. This has actually been one (of many) thing I've considered and have read up a bit into, although not on any sort of extensive level. I'll shoot you a PM to see what you've got in mind. I like the centre clutch idea too, but I'm most likely going to focus my efforts on powertrain or vehicle dynamics. Possibly aerodynamics but that is likely a little advanced for where I am right now. (At least in terms of being able to demonstrate proof of concept analytically).
Last edited by Salomon Ponte; April 18, 2013 11:43 pm UTC.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Johnny Larmond]
#400556
April 18, 2013 11:56 pm UTC
April 18, 2013 11:56 pm UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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I like the centre clutch idea too, but I'm most likely going to focus my efforts on powertrain or vehicle dynamics. Possibly aerodynamics but that is likely a little advanced for where I am right now. (At least in terms of being able to demonstrate proof of concept analytically). Are you looking for less parasite drag, or are you looking for more downforce/handling characteristics? I want to design a body(kit) that will provide exceptional downforce/handling characteristics as well as exceptional cooling for the rad/intercooler, brakes, etc. Most people call me silly, but I want to make my 1G a road course beast.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#400558
April 19, 2013 12:07 am UTC
April 19, 2013 12:07 am UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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I want to design a body(kit) that will provide exceptional downforce/handling characteristics as well as exceptional cooling for the rad/intercooler, brakes, etc. Most people call me silly, but I want to make my 1G a road course beast. I will be the first inline to see it. When I drive my car, road course beast is definitely not one of the things that comes to mind.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Jamie Valcamp]
#400565
April 19, 2013 01:15 am UTC
April 19, 2013 01:15 am UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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An excellent resource, this should be standard reading in case you haven't already seen it. Covers all aspects from Aerodynamics to Suspension and "Written for both the engineer and the automobile enthusiast" http://www.millikenresearch.com/rcvd.htmlWe used it for our FSAE car way back in the 90's (before I was the old man I am now)! Spawned many design projects for us. Ahh yes. I have seen that book around the FSAE room here as well. It's definitely one of the more well-worn books! I'll have to give it a read. I REALLY want to attend an OptimumG training session. Claude Rouelle is incredible and is the lead judge at the FSAE competition in Michigan (and also at the newer Formula North in Barrie). One of the guys on our FSAE is actually working for him right now after he got a personal invite from Claude during judging sessions. He also got personal invites from quite a few other judges...he's somewhat of vehicle dynamics whiz-kid to say the least! I'll have to look more into the Optimum software as well.
Last edited by Salomon Ponte; April 19, 2013 01:16 am UTC.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#400989
April 22, 2013 06:32 pm UTC
April 22, 2013 06:32 pm UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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So when are you going to come Brightside any pick up the materials to start the project? Brightside will sponsor you if you do! Pretty sure I'm gonna go with this project. Kills three birds with one stone: 1) Gives me a good project to do. 2) Forces me to learn a ton about suspension/vehicle dynamics and also FEA. 3) Will have a sweet setup I've had finals, which is why I haven't even had a chance to PM/talk to you about it...but, I finished my last one this morning so I'm FREE! I've got this week and next week off and will be back home (RHill), so I'll be by, don't worry. I'll shoot you a message soon. Just cleaning up and running errands that I've put off for the past while. For what it's worth, I'd still like to hear other ideas if anyone has. Even if I don't take them on as my design project, I'm always interested in new ideas for stuff to try/dig into!
Last edited by Salomon Ponte; April 22, 2013 06:33 pm UTC.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#400990
April 22, 2013 06:35 pm UTC
April 22, 2013 06:35 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
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Bryan Lawrence
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Sal, you best be starting a thread with lots of pictures when you start this project!
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Johnny Larmond]
#400995
April 22, 2013 07:03 pm UTC
April 22, 2013 07:03 pm UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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Sal, you best be starting a thread with lots of pictures when you start this project! There will be pictures. Lots of them. And there will be a full engineering design report (including engineering analysis), should you/anyone care to read it. Once I start digging into it I'll also be throwing up a post on Tuners to get some input from some of the guys over there. Good stuff on the finals man. Congrats and happy summer car time.
Thanks! Couldn't have been a more perfect day to end - this weather is AMAZING! Guess this means it's time for that AWD swap, eh?
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Johnny Larmond]
#401003
April 22, 2013 07:35 pm UTC
April 22, 2013 07:35 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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What's nice weather with out solid beats?! True dat!
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Johnny Larmond]
#401015
April 22, 2013 08:25 pm UTC
April 22, 2013 08:25 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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I don't believe that was me. It crackles under bass. No physical damage to the exterior of the speaker (cone, magnet, shroud, VC, etc) It's an mb Quart component 6.5" Crackling is usually just a loost connection/contact. see if there is anything loose and resolder it.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401030
April 22, 2013 09:44 pm UTC
April 22, 2013 09:44 pm UTC
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Zvonko Vrbatovic
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I could have a good idea for you... Last thing I figured out and invented got "stolen" by Pagani. Have you decided to go ground up and begin from scratch, or use something and modify it ? Is there a way we could chat? Noticed the DSM chat ain't working
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#402981
May 16, 2013 03:11 pm UTC
May 16, 2013 03:11 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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Hey Salomon, have you decided to start on this. I have been trying to figure out if there is a budget option for rally suspension so I was just doing a bunch of reading on the evo viii suspension on the 1g. Here is what I found, figured you might be interested. http://www.galantvr4.org/ubbthreads...amp;Number=208738&page=0&fpart=1
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#415301
October 07, 2013 04:55 am UTC
October 07, 2013 04:55 am UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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A few key points:
- Mine are going to be one piece (billet aluminum) unlike the Magnus multi-piece ones (which are 2G only, anyways), as a single piece design is much stronger/more desirable
- I'm making it so the Evo 8/9 brembos are bolt-ons, no brackets necessary
- 2G/Evo bolt-in wheel bearing will be used and a direct bolt-in, versus the awful press-in style 1G wheel bearings/hubs
- For the scope of this project/paper I'm keeping the suspension pickup points the same, but I'd like to ultimately modify those as well to directly accept the Evo suspension (vs. the slight modifications currently necessary) as well as to change the pickup points for the control arms, once I do a full suspension geometry analysis. Of course, this also requires custom control arms, but I plan to make those as well in due time
- Ideally, I'll make two versions, the one I'm designing now that will be a direct bolt-on piece (but with brembos vs stock calipers), and then the 2nd one will have the top modified slightly for direct Evo shock bolt-on and possible modified suspension pickup points, depending on how much time/effort I decide to dedicate and if I deem it a worthwhile endeavour
If the design goes well, I will be making rear 1G ones and front & rear 2G ones, if someone feels like paying for me to design them
Last edited by Salomon Ponte; October 07, 2013 05:10 am UTC.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#415306
October 07, 2013 05:31 am UTC
October 07, 2013 05:31 am UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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Magnus sells them for $1500 for the pair, but it's a poor design and requires custom control arms.
For 1Gs I want to offer a version that uses stock geometry and custom geometry (requiring custom control arms, etc.).
For the 2G, I will likely only make one design with custom geometry as the 2G hubs are already bolt on and if I am going to go through the trouble of redesigning the upright, it will be done with no holds barred. I know there will be more of a market for the 2G ones anyways as there are quite a few very serious road racers running 2Gs out there.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#415308
October 07, 2013 11:39 am UTC
October 07, 2013 11:39 am UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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I thought that the 2g kids just replaced their whole hub when they needed to replace there bearings?
Why the evo suspension? This doesn't seem like the cheaper option to go with so why wouldn't you just go with a nice set of coilovers? or is it because the evo suspension uses larger bolts and is believed to be stronger?
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#415312
October 07, 2013 01:11 pm UTC
October 07, 2013 01:11 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
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Bryan Lawrence
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The first sentence is all I needed not being cheap, just trying to be informed I figured a good coilover setup for a DSM was as good as anything else. I remember Salomon had posted up about some really expensive/impressive coilovers that were available for the DSM.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Design Project Ideas
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#415313
October 07, 2013 01:21 pm UTC
October 07, 2013 01:21 pm UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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Bryan, the best suspension options available for the 1Gs are Evo 8/9 suspension bits that have been modified slightly to fit the 1G. The Evo 8/9 suspension is almost a direct bolt-in, particularly in the front. It will require minimal modification to the design to make it work directly as a bolt-on. To give you an idea, look here: http://www.muellerized.com/products_1gdsm.html (These are the ones I posted up quite a while back). You're looking at easily $3-$4k+ just for the shocks/struts for 4 corners from Ohlins/Hot Bits/etc. and that doesn't include any of the other suspension components nor does it include proper setup, which is easily more than 50% of what goes into making a car handle well, regardless of how good the components you use are. If you go through the Mueller site you can see that you can easily turn that $3-4k into $8-10k+++ VERY quickly. Again, for nothing other than your struts for four corners. When I get a chance, I will post pictures of the two knuckles side-by-side and you will see just how damn near identical they are. As Mike mentioned, cost is literally the last thing I care about. To be honest, the largest cost in something like this is the R&D. I'm doing it myself and I'm even getting a credit out of it, so there's no monetary cost (to me) in that sense. It's a LOT of work, but I'm getting a lot out of it that will help me more than just on the track. Materials and machining ARE very expensive, but luckily I have some generous offers that will help cover most, if not all of the expenses for the first set I make (for myself). Mike, thanks for letting me know that it's FWD. I actually have a pair of spare AWD front knuckles, so I will compare and measure all 3. I have to speak to Rob, as he mentioned that he could CMM them for me, which would be far more ideal than trying to build a jig and taking hand measurements.
Last edited by Salomon Ponte; October 07, 2013 01:23 pm UTC.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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