So I have a 92 awd shell.
motor
16g
650cc fic's
maf-t
wideband
2g ported manifold
tubular o2 housing
evo intercooler
255 walbro
afpr
3inch downpipe with cat.
with the exception of a logger could this all be put together with zero knowledge of tunning. And I do have megasquirt but I want to save that for next year.
I did have ideas of a big build but my patience is drawing thin and I would like to drive It before the winter.

Well you can tune with the MAF-T for the injectors, everything else shouldn't change much.

So will you have 3 inch turbo back?

Yeah I will have to make it but i will continue with 3 inch.

So I could get a fairly reliable tune with maf-t only

yeah with the 650s you should be fine.
if you are going to go bigger than that than use something else.
Do some reading on tuners about the maf-t, it really messes with your cars idle and closed/open loop function.

Do you have the maft already? Cause I just gave up on mine... and went old school with a burnt chip to run 750s and tuned with now fuel cut.. no rev limit... For less money then I paid for my maft set up.

Are you good at the megasquirt? cuase its not very user freindly. Especially if noone else is running it. There is a guy with a mighty max/4g63t running it that will let you download a map to start out with.

I already have everything in the above list Including maft, I do not have experience with megasquirt I was planning on installing it with the map that is pre loaded then taking it to somebody who knows what they are doing.
I'm very open to what you guys think will be the best user friendly route to take for a simple reliable 16g set up.
I dont want to be that guy on kijiji in 2 years time selling a "project car I didnt finish" lol.

Have you ruled out picking up DSMLink at some point (even if not now)?

Or Dsmap.. its another reliable affordable option thats so simple to use... you dont even need to do anything.. just plug it in and done.. your tuned speed density and running better then stock. Change your globals and deadtimes for your injectors and easily run that 16g.

Id sell the mega squirt and just buy that and have change left over.

Hmmm dsmap sounds intriguing. ...........to google!!

Looking like ill need to find a eprom ecu and the ostrich module.

Your gonna need an eprom for Link.. Dsmap.. or a chip.

buying and chipping an eprom... 197(just cost me that much to chip my 1g) no tuning but fuel and timing will be good to go for what ever you want.
buying an eprom and Dsmap.......300 fully tuneable.. not much sapport any more but its easier then Link.
Buying an eprom and Link.....600+ but its got lots of support. And it can do a few more extra things then dsmap.

If your only running 650's buy a SAFC for $100, then ANYONE can tune it easily with a logger. any tuning shop will be able to dial it in. when your done and ready to upgrade the way you tune you can sell it for $100 again!

Im liking the burnt chip idea most with the above bolt ons I should see 300hp right? which is more than enough for a street car.

ECM link V2 for savings or V3 for easy tuning. by far the best bang for buck, I'm not sure why you would want to try reinventing the wheel or going with a platform that has scarce support for our cars..

I'm sure you would rather be driving and enjoying your car not banging your head trying to figure out how to tune. start off right by getting either Link or an AEM, its not a tough choice

I would go burnt chip too if you are trying to save some money.
SAFC is the same idea as MAF-T so no point in grabbing both.
I am not sure the 650s will net you the 300 hp though, if the do your duty cycle will probably be pretty high.

I would remove AEM from that statement. It's a powerful unit, but for what he's doing it's far more complex than he'll ever need. I'd much sooner suggest DSMap, EvoScan (Evo 8 ECU), etc. Although Link would be and still is my first suggestion.

650s will be fine.

Kirk, set your base fuel pressure to 44 psi...none of this 37PSI nonsense that most people do for a 1G AWD. You've got an upgraded fuel pump, and soon you'll have a way to tune it...set it at 44psi and keep your injector duty cycles down.

I am running stock base pressure, maybe I will look at doing that when my duty cycle gets high.
Hopefully that won't happen soon as I have 1000s

I'm running 1000's as well. I just recently (within the past few weeks) bumped up my BFP to 44psi. One thing to keep in mind is that most of the injectors are rated at 44/45psi...so if you're running 37psi, you're not getting the full rated flowrate.

So did you just change the pressure in link so it would recalculate and everything ran fine?
I am just curious if I am going to have to do some crazy tuning after.

My global in Link had already been modified from the 'suggested' value, but all you need to do is subtract the the difference.

Let's say you originally set your global based on 1000s, 37.5psi BFP etc. and got -55.1% as your suggested global.

Now let's say your new suggested global is -58.4%, based on the same variables other than BFP.

Therefore, you'd want to subtract 3.3% from your global.

My global had already been modified from suggested, but subtracting the difference calculated kept my tune pretty much perfectly in line, but got my IDC down.

E.g.

Suggested Global @ BFP of 37.5 w. 1000's - -55.1%
Current Global @ BFP 0f 37.5 w. 1000's - -51.3%
Suggested Global @ BFP of 44 w. 1000's - -58.4%
Difference in Suggested Globals - 3.3% [=-55.1 - (-58.4)]
New Current Global @ BFP of 44 w. 1000's - -54.6% [=-51.3 - 3.3]

Hopefully that makes sense.

There really should be little to no tuning required if done this way.

Do keep in mind, this may affect how well certain values line up for logging purposes (e.g. AFR and AFREst), but should not affect your overall tune at all.

Kirk, you'll get a 100% vote from anyone running ECMLink. There is only one way of thinking when building your car.

Cheap. Fast. Reliable. Pick 2.

Get link and be done with it. Even if it means scraping together a few extra bucks over the course of another month or so. This DSMap crap isn't going to benefit you in the long run, only because of two things.

1: PnP - Not much customization
2: Very little support

If you go with a "lesser" tuning platform like an SAFC or a chip or DSMap, you'll be kicking yourself later when you try and get rid of it to upgrade to ECMLink, and you WILL eventually outgrow what these lesser platforms can handle. IMO, there's only one way to go with these cars to get the best bang for your buck and that's with ECMLink. You can have someone in Dubai look at your logs for you and give it a tweak, and email you back the settings. I don't know too many other platforms you can do that with.

+1

I ve got a spare, and I believe it may be socketed, 1g eprom. I was guna hold onto it, but it may be of more use to you? Lemme know.

I donno..

Ive done both.. and I still found Dsmap alot easier... runs smoother.... and has enough sapport that you shouldnt have any problems. Not that there is any..

Dsmap runs open loop all the time. So you just set what you want your afrs and timing to be at any rpm vs map reading.. and go. No fuckin around with fuel trims and maf compensation.. Air per rev flows.. You want 14:1 afr at 2300 rpm at 12 hgs. ... Set it. But when you get the program for he ostrich.. its already better then stock ever was.

The Speed density is native. not converted....

Has is own logging with a faster rate.

There are plenty of high HP cars out there running it. Its just not got that Ipod like reputation.

It can do anything link can Except not take 2 days of dialing in yyour maf.

Link is a program to manipulate your existing ecm to run they way you would like it to...

Dsmap and the ostrich is a stand alone that just uses the ecm as a gateway to tell the car what to do...

Most people who crap on dsmap... either never installed it.. or messed something up when installing it. But I would put money on the fact that if anyone of these link guys had the chance to install dsmap on a stock 1g... they would feel the same way I do.

Link is cool too... I would rather just run dsmap for ease and affordability

And honestly...Kirk I would just save for he ostrich instead of the chip.. Its really not that hard..

Jay, I'm sure it has it's advantages, just like having Velcro shoes vs ones you have to tie. It just all matters on how simple you want to be.

It cannot do everything that ECMLink does. It doesn't take 2 days to dial in your MAF, you just have to know what you are doing.

I've seen Jackal, and it looks exactly like the Direct Access tables in ECMLink. It's good I'm sure, but I see some key disadvantages:

Only goes up to 7000RPMS in Fuel/Timing and 8000 in VE
Does not allow you to change what your boost gauge does
Will not flash CEL for knock Retard
Forces the user to use Open Loop, which can be poorly efficient for fuel economy and emissions. An open loop car will not pass emissions as it will not allow the sensors to ready. That in itself removes about 50% of what ECMLink is able to do (Set thresholds, allow for Min and Max octane tables etc.)
You can control a meth system with ECMLink by removing a specific percentage of fuel when the meth turns on. This can also be the same for Nitrous
ECMLink allows for antilag.

Oh, LIVE DATALOGGING on a beautiful graphic display without the need to make your own cables...

So don't say it can do everything ECMLink can, because it can't, not even close.

Ecu Flash can, it's cheaper (specially if you sell the cable after and just grab a 1.3 jack to monitor things on evoscan) and can be retrofitted to a 1g

Yeah, I was looking at that for our WRX. MMMMMMM tuning.....

I don't believe you can do any live datalogging with this software though like you can in ECMLink.

Well you can't do both at the same time (Datalog and change the maps), but you can see what you're logging in real time via evoscan and later change the map. It's not a big hassle in either case, specially for the $$ you're saving. You can even get it to show all the parameters on a screen in your car if you have the right audio/video screen installed. So no laptop! and you can see your info everyday at the touch of a button.

Ryan welcome to the world of Warewolf! Jackals upgrade! Dsmap came back about 6 or 7 years ago.

10000rpm maps, not extended.. actual 10000rpms 22row maps, for timing and fuel and VE tables x 17 full scale map rows from -29hg to 29psi .. or what ever you set it for.

-Can control up to 8 separate injectors banks.
-It can flash knock, and control the boost gauge.. but I never look at mine.
-open loop is more controllable you can pass a sniffer test easy and since there isnt a dsmap for a 2g, it wouldnt matter for the ready sensors.
-You can run high and low octane maps.. I never got into that..And there are threshhlds... all kinds since most of the sensors are ignored for normal driving.. they can be set to change what ever you want them to.. when ever you want them too.. like retard timing when coolant raises past 200* and then shoot some water on to the Intercooler!(example)
-and ya, you could control meth and have it adjust fuel and timing around it if you want. I never got into that. But all inputs and outputs that Link can control.. and more.. make it so you can start a 12v coffee maker if you want and have the fuel cut i half while you do it!

You need 2 cables vs links 1 cable. which can be made for a few bucks... or you can buy them from the site for.. a few bucks. I think there even working on an BT android system now aswell. I know you can log via MMCD or MMSD via BT android. and it uses the same program.
They even have a freescale Map sensor they sell that they claims to be better them the gm sensor.

Live datalogging aswell

Warewolf also does map tracing aswell as scaling.




Its not much diferant then Link any more..

Hey Kirk..
Tell ya what.. Go and buy what you need for the DSMAP set up.. invite all the doubters and a 12 year old to set it up and get it running. If your not happy and running better then you evver were.. in 1 hour.. Ill buy the set up off ya.

Haha im enquiring about a eprom chip as we speak.

From Memphis? tell him I sent ya!

No MY1GDSM
hes a vendor on tuners

How much would you sell the megasquirt. for? Ive always wanted to give my riding lawn mower fuel injection.

To see it on a lawn mower 150 lol or trade for something.
Has launch control for serious mowing

is it assembled?

Yeah its ms2v3 just needs the harness I may even have all the sensors to include.

we will continue in pm!

Well then, seems like quite the setup, I wonder why the rest of the DSM world doesn't run it. If it's exactly like ECMLink and can do everything you say it can do at half the price, why do VERY VERY few people use it?

Also, if it's so awesome, why can't it be made for 2G?

Because Race Car!

LOL!

I look at it this way:

I'm a business man. I look at what I'll get the most value for my money. Investing in an inferior product which I will have to upgrade later on down the road does not make sense to me. I know with ECMLink the way it is right now, if any new firmware updates or software updates come out, they are free. It's got the best online support forum with the FASTEST and MOST EXPERIENCED (Think Ron Shearer, John Shepherd, Paul Volk, Cory Bowes, John Wigger etc) on it which run the fastest times at the Shootout.

But, there are some on the board who like to try new things. Fill your boots. I'll stick with what works.

I do believe Jay, you run ECMLink right now due to the "Lack of support for 2G".

My point..... proven.

JMHO.

Sorry your point is .... weak.. but this is fun.. it happens all the time.

Dsmap is always upgrading its firmware.. On the dsmap forum.. that basicly what they discuss... since yoi rarely see discusions of problems. There is one programer who dosent do this for a living. He dosent even own a Dsm any more. He has some field testers whos cars are running better then 10s. He dosent play with 2gs cause he dosent like the obd2 and well 2gs. Dsmap im pretty sure was around before link.. the original guys were the ones who created mmcd and he first chip burners. And most of the big names in DSM dont use Link either. They use things like Haltec and AEM. Your a business man.. well your an aunterprentour(sorry bout the spelling) But a good business man will take risks to improve himself or save money.

Bet you have an Iphone... same thing... marketed to be the best ... so everyone gets one... That makes every one think its the best... but the specs always say differant.

Hak from Dsmap isnt in it to make money.

I actually have an Android phone, which has always been far superior to that of the IPhone. And Jay, being a former business owner yourself, you should know what happens when a business doesn't market itself properly.

And my point is not weak. 10's are easy these days. Jay, you're so far behind I'm passing you. DSMap was cool and all, 5 years ago. Get with the times buddy. They've adapted ECMLink to work on the EVO 8+ Platform and they're installing MIVEC into DSMs.

Besides, at the shop I just bought into, we'll be dealing in a lot more different platforms. Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Mistubishi and Subaru.

Is this shop open yet Ryan?

Yes, been open for a month now. I'll be putting a proper advertisement in the classifieds section soon.

http://www.jfpauto.com/

Cool, look forward to seeing it.

Is the banner the shop car?
https://www.facebook.com/JFPAutomotive

LOL, I hope that website is getting updated soon

Ok. yes marketing is what got link famous. and when I bought my first dsm.. Everyone and their mom said I should just get Link. But Unlike everyone else..I have been playing with Megasquirt and knew I could tune a car for far less money and have more options. So I looked into it. and found Dsmap. Everyone was using its tech before Link came out... but when Link came out.. The guys at DSMap had a fall out. So they never went anywhere and well Thomus took the need of every dsmer by the balls and made a tone of money marketing something everyone Insisted on. Dsmap came back and is constantly upgradeing to keep up with what the customer wants.. But becuase they want to help... not make money..

Get with the times???? Even Buscher himself said hes surprised he even sees dsms any more. And for the record last time I was checking out his cars on his website.. his high hp cars dont use link.

Im not saying dsmap ia the best out there... Im saying it gives alot more for the buck the link does... thats alll. most people here will never need more then What dsmap offers anyway..


And are yousaying that link will be able to run in nissans etc. Well you know dsmap technicly can run in any car with a eprom.. But get with the time... all those cars are classics now. We dont need to reinvent the wheel.... whe need to start somthing new.

wait never mind... I just reread yor last post...

Im done.. I got my point across and I believe Ive shown what i need to show to prove my point..

Sorry kirk for litering your post with other people bashing my idea and insulting my intelligents.

Fixed that for you Jay, don't make the rest of us look like bad guys.
After listening to you preach about DSMap over the last few years I look back and wish I had given it a try.

One thing I will say is there might be an issue with resell.
MAF-T is a pain to resell and I would expect that the ostrich would be the same.

Also Ryan, do you have a business that's been going for more than 3 years?
If not I don't see how you can tell anyone how to do marketing.
DSMLink took advantage of an opportunity and did a damn good job at it, they are a company and that's what they do as their day job. Also can't say updates are free, to update from v2 to v3 is not cheap and is about the total cost you will pay for in your lifetime of using DSMap. DSMap is a small team of people who do it on the side, so you can expect things to happen as fast and as quickly as they do for DSMLink.

Bryan:

There was a conversation Jay and I had a while back at Ghislains when he said "I wish I knew how to market like you do, maybe my business wouldn't have failed."

As for Link Vs DSMap... I haven't used DSMap. It's not widely used and I was just basing my opinion on the fact that Link has more support for it, and IMO does a better job. Less hardware, more user friendly, and you don't have to force the car in openloop all the time.

As for cluttering up the thread, my apologies, but I believe Kirk wanted some opinions.

Jay, sorry for insulting your "intelligence".

Moving on...

I will agree with you on the open loop, I am not a huge fan of that either even though it should allow you to setup your exact AFR but will probably make idle tuning harder when making mods.

I will also say that people though much the same about Android when it first came out and look at it now. This is another example of a big company with a large amount of followers and another company doing something with more community involvement and less hype. Linux vs Windows is another. I think you get the idea.

Open loop idle tuning was easy.. idled better then stock.. cruised better then stock... and wot better then stock obviously.. When I upgraded to my 750 injectors.. I had no problem dialing them in..even not having any idea what dead times to start with. And tuning well just as easy as any fuel tuning maps.

Ryan... you cant have an opinion on wether link is better the dsmap if you never installed and tuned with dsmap. I have done both and I fully recomend dsmap over link to anyone...atany street rated opwer level. Take it from experience. Every arguement about dsmap vs link always ends in link having more sapport.. which to me means nothing... theres plenty of sapport for both platforms

You are a better marketer them me... Im a horrable people person. But thats like saying your better them me at designing table top center peices.. Cause I suck at that too. You seem to be good at it.. but like Bryan says.. Most dont consider being succesful at anylevel of business for at least 3 years.

Keep the personal business out of this thread please - we all have our strenghts and weaknesses.

Has anyone here had a good experience tuning with MAF-T? Since you already own it I would probably try that first.

But yeah it's hard to go wrong with DSMLink...

you'll get better results with 650cc and lower injectors using an SAFC or neo then using the MAF-t junk....JUNK!!

+1 for DSMLink because of the support you receive, I sent logs to Tom at ECMLink MANY times and he responded quickly with tweaks and suggestions to my tune until she ran like a swiss clock...even with a blown HG, stretched head studs and 2 broken valves...she ran all summer long! this wouldn't of been possible without Link and the boys at ECMtuning.

I could never get the maft to work.. I got it to idle but it would thro a sel and my fuel trims seem to be way too high.

And we could battle link vs dsmap all day its an age old debate. They will both do what most wil ask from them and they both have the same sapport.....Hak himself has used that windows program to actually look at my screen while I was driving around logging.

As far as settong them both up.. sure link has alot of people to ask about the 15 or so problems most noobies have about start up.. And trust me or dont but there are alot of people who are willing to help set up dsmap. Altho there rarely is a reason it shouldnt start up and run as soon as you install it. Unlike closed loop setups where you have 15 sensors fighting each other to make the engine run efficiantly... open loop setups like dsmap and megasquirt and most other stand alones only have 2 main variables... air... rpms..with every customizable threshhold at your comand.

After its running well most tuning soft wear is the same. So I could ask all my buddies at dsmap.com. or ask anyone else who knows how to change a VE table or timing map.

Im not saying that link is a bad choice.... I just wish Link people wouldnt talk sh!t about dsmap cause chances are... as in this case..... they dont know.

Either way.. Ive already been discussing with Kirk thru pm about this. Hes already started spending money. He made his decision before this all got personal.

Im not speaking ill of dsmap because like you said... ive never used it. all I'm saying here is a big +1 for dsmlink because of the support i recieved. AEM FTW! jk

Yup buying a socketed ecu and a chip, but feel free to carry on lol

Whats your thoughts on a used clutch?

Depends on how used.
I would check with how many kms it has on it and if it had been use on the drag strip or just on the street.

What would be a reasonable amount of kms?

10-20kms. I personally wouldn't consider anything more than that. BUT to each their own. I also just wouldn't buy used friction parts other than tires.

used clutches are fine if you know where there coming from.. theres lots of clutches forsale from part outs with low milage. Ive never bougt a new clutch.. and never had a problem with used clutches. Consifering how much you pay for a new Pp plate.. disk.. and flywheel. If you can get a second hand one for a good price that has been broke in well and not abused. Then go for it.

Yeah I wouldn't worry about a used pressure plate.
I would worry about the disk and the flywheel, and mostly about a reputable shop to get the flywheel stepped.

This.

You could find yourself a good quality used PP and lightened flywheel and get yourself a new disc.

Clutch is sorted all I need is a fuel pump rewire kit and a data logger. I have a few more questions though.
what is the advantage of setting my afpr to 44psi with my walbro 255.
and with my setup running the burnt chip how will I know the max boost I can run?.

Higher base fuel pressure will help keep injector duty cycle down.

Keep in mind, most if not all the injectors available for our cars are rated at ~45psi, so if you're only running 37.5psi, you're not flowing anywhere near what the injector is rated at.

Gotcha well I have fic 650's so they should be good at 44psi?

You will find the boost can be raised till you see either knock or too high of duty cycle. Since you running 660s at 44psi you wont see too high of duty cycle before it knocks. You watch the knock on the logger. Unless your chip programer made your cel or stock boost gauge a knock moniter. Then you could just raise the boost untill then.

You can get a older laptop with a serial port or a newer laptop and a serial port adapter for usb. And make the connector then use a pc based logger or buy a old palm pilot. The palm will be easier.. thats what I use in my wifes chipped 1g

I would recommend palm, I tried a ton of option to get a laptop to work with no luck at all.

Ya ctaully I agree.. I never got a loptop logger to work. Do the reasearch on which palm to use and how to do it. look up mmcd.

Laptops are so much better for logging.. I think the value of my old serial port equipped laptop is increasing

I think I still have a Belkin USB-Serial adapter around, the one you needed to use for DSMLink V2.

Has anyone used the bluetooth mmcd adaptor for smart phones?
My old boost gauge will be the knock monitor. What kind of power could I expect from my set up im beginning to wonder if my evo intercooler will be big enough.

I use the blue tooth with torque pro on my envoy and 2g.. But they are obd2.

Anywhere between 250-400hp depending on how well you can tune it.