Read on dsmtuners that it is pointless to hook up a FMIC (i have a mishimoto m series) to my stock T25 setup as it will hinder my performance more so than the state it is currently in...any ideas? Should i not be looking to drop money on the piping and put the FMIC install on the back burner until i get a bigger turbo?

Why not upgrade the turbo while upgrading the intercooler? Even so much as just a T-28 or a 14b.

I'm scared of damaging the engine without doing some internal work. And i would think upgrading the turbo will open a can of worms as far as needing to upgrade fuel pump, injectors and so on.

Correct me if im wrong

Just do a small 16g. They're a TON of fun for little money!

don't expect to see any hp gains from installing a FMIC with the t-25.

you should be able to get a 14b for less then $100 and an install kit for around the same price, the 14b will not need any additional support mods and is a great upgrade over the t-25.

Once you've done the install kit for the 14b...swapping to any 16g will be simple when you are ready to buy support mods.

No can of worms. Just dsmlink, wideband, boost gauge, fuel pump + rewire, exhaust, plugs + wires, injectors and you're golden.

I've beat as hard as I can on my stock block 7 bolt all summer long with an hx35.

Also, if you haven't yet, setup your clutch so that you don't need to push it in to start your car. It will help save your bearings.

If you're on a 5 speed that is.

He doesn't even need any of the above to switch to a 14b. All he needs is the 'install kit', a working 14b and he's done.

You make it sound too easy Stephan

All kidding aside that will definitely be a mini project I will begin once:

a) i get some money
b) clutch is replaced (maybe even an awd swap beforehand)

Unless Salomon is right?

Loving the support and feedback of this forum...you guys rock!

Salomon is right!!! All the extra's would certainly help... but are not necessary to swap on a 14b.

Sorry. Those supporting mods are for a 16g and up.

Salomon is right. 14b, easy-peasy.

Once you get the hang of working on these cars, it is easy. Just take your time and do things right.

Patience is a virtue a guess, as i learned with the alternator pull/install when i rebuilt it. Did get frustrated at times but it is ofcourse a smaller car inwhich the dsm gods packed a big punch in that small package

The indestructible alternator never made for our cars came from the Saturn 90amp. Seriously.

Most of us are using one and have relocated it using the JAY RACING RELO KIT to the back of the motor, away from the turbo and downpipe (heat).

You're going to have a lot of fun learning about your car, if you're a TRUE enthusiast. And by the sounds of it, you are! Glad to see another one of "us" here

sh!t I wish i had read up on here prior to rebuilding, but hey for 100$ everything said and done i dont think i can complain.

And thanks Mike, i think...not to sure if its an honor to be on of "us" or not jokes...appreciate the warm welcome

Swap to a 14b when you're doing your FMIC if you want to see some gains. Or even before.. it's up to you. It's a factory turbo; there are no supporting mods required.

The list that Stephan gave you is a good list to work on over the next while. Most can be done one at a time, when you have the time and money available. Once the list is complete, you're ready to hop into a 16g. Those little things pack a punch; they'll keep you happy for a while.

If your alternator goes again, you may want to look into a Saturn alternator. If it was rebuilt well, you probably won't have any issues with it for a while. I wouldn't worry about it.

Oh, and you bought a DSM for a reason. You're a long, long ways away from needing to upgrade any engine internals

For the 14b, all you need is the turbo and the 1g oil feed line from the head 1g drain line(2g will work too with a slight mod) and your coolant lines off the T-25. Also a manual boost controller so you don't boost too much and hit fuel cut.

If your motor is somewhat healthy, it'll be just fine. I'm stock 7 bolt block on an FP Red running 11's @ 115+

Dont worry bout the turbo... unless you have a 14b or 16g given to ya for a few bucks. $200 for the 14b and install kit, would be better spent on upgrades and prep for a bigger turbo. You will end up going bigger anyway.

I would grab everything else you will need, like injectors, wideband, tuning devices..fuel pump upgrades... get everything working on the car and learn how to use it..

Then upgrade to any turbo you want. If your not used to 400hp cars.. then grab a td05 size turbo.. more then 450hp is your goal?? then go with a large frame turbo. By then you will know how to tune it.. and the car will be ready.

my 2 cents

To keep in mind, your stock 2g BOV will leak any boost higher than 12psi.

I ran 14b@15 psi on completely stock setup(except BOV). It's a night and day compared to t25.

I have managed to get 13.7sec@99.5mph out of the stock turbo at 17psi with fmic and other supporting mods, the car worked very well. Also with the same setup other then swapping to very used evo16g the car went 12.7 with stock exhaust. So yes the stock turbo is weak but on a street you get an instant response. I have ported my a lot on the cold/hot side.

Awesome feedback... @Jay Stacey power goals will be around 300+HP, my brother has a supercharged range rover sport and that kind of power in a lighter dsm would be more than enough for me.

@Alex the previous owner had installed a greddy type s bov

@Paul that is what i like about the stock t25 the faster spool/response but then at higher rpm i feel as if the car is being choked...but then again i only take it to higher rpm's when a fart can ricer needs to be brought back down to reality

One of us.... One of us.... One of us.....

The type S is a solid unit that should carry you for a while now. Is it recirculated? If not, you should look into doing that. Pool hose from Home Depot works very well as its quite flexible. Ribbed black with a blue stripe.

A 14b will be a lot of fun for you if you're just getting into the scene. It will also give you a taste for getting under the hood and turning some wrenches. As already mentioned, you don't need any other mods to support that turbo, but a boost controller might be advisable.



Just like that eh? . you're looking at 1300$ + for all of that and a solid days work for a seasoned DSMer. But all of those are pretty necessary for anything beyond a 14b/t28.
I'd also ad an oil pressure gauge, upgraded clutch, and FIMC.
Plus, when you go bigger your rad fans become an issue.

Take a peek at the upgrade path on tuners. It should give you a pretty good idea of what you'll require and when.

Cheers and welcome! Oneofus...... Oneofus..... Oneofus...... Dammit, can't turn that thing off...

are you sure stock fans become an issue? or you mean stock rad?

Both I suppose. Stock rad because of its limited cooling capacity, and rad fans because of their size. The stock fans will out perform any slim fan, hands down.
Bigger rad doesn't work well with big fans

A FMIC is probably one of the most underrated mods on a DSM. Everybody is so focused on getting an exhaust, BOV, intake, etc. If you've ever been in a stock SMIC DSM and then in the exact same car, unchanged other than a nice FMIC, it feels like a completely different car.

Not saying it's wise to do on a T25. But I can't be bothered owning such a turbo. However, anything 14B and larger it will be a nice increase.

I would fine a small 16G to replace the T25. It's again, a turbo that's often overlooked. It's not as great as the infamous Evo III 16G, but while everybody is searching for one of those, you can get a s16G for not a lot more than a 14B. And it's better overall. Spools just about as quick, but packs a much harder punch.

I would do a s16G with the FMIC. Toss a Walbro 255 in the tank and rewire it, and keep it around 15 psi. The car will feel like a monster compared to the way it is now

Wow, gone are the days of free mods and being happy with a few more psi on a stock turbo

I would say get what you can out of the T25 while installing the mods that you'll need/are compatible with any turbo. When the T25 is boring and only then, start building from its replacement outward.

To answer the original question, I think you will get more out of the T25 with a FMIC but it might be a waste to plumb it in because you'll outgrow the turbo.

I run the mishimoto rad with the 2 stock fans (rad and a/c) wired to come on together and it works flawlessly, as for clearence, I have the vrsf j pipe, e316g and the HAFE manifold. Everything fits nicely.

Lucian, I can't agree with you on that one.
After we installed the FMIC and the 16g I barely noticed a difference, maybe if I had done some tuning I would have. The car only became a whole different monster after the 3" exhaust went on.
Maybe it was because it had been a few days since I drove it last, but overall the exhaust was the change that turned my car into a monster.

^^^
Did you turn the boost up? Were you running much boost in the first place?

Nope, I think I was at 11psi the whole time. or I went from 7 to 11, i don't recall

I've noticed the FMIC on multiple DSMs, regardless of my own or somebody elses. Just personal feel I guess. Exhaust is noticeable too of course. Hell I noticed a difference between cat and no cat, both on a 3" exhaust

Hm that's pretty impressive, I figured you wouldn't make a huge difference between cat and no cat, at least not noticeable.

Im sure if you were running your little t25 over 15psi (when she becomes a hair dryer) a fmic would help some but Mannys money could be used twords better mods that will actually help more in his stock form. I say... RtM MBC and boost guage would be my first mods.

I also noticed a difference between cat and no cat on my 3inch, not much... But a difference.

At 11 psi I don't think there is much cooling difference between the SMIC and FMIC because the air just isn't that hot in the first place. If you overrun the SMIC, then installing the FMIC will surely make a difference. The T25 will run hotter for the same psi so arguably the FMIC is a better mod on the smaller turbo

I guess if you were smart about plumbing it with future turbo in mind it'd be worth more than a doorstop for now.

With all information in this thread, Manny is gonna end up building a sh!t box of a DSM!

Take Lucian's advice. A FMIC is the most underrated mod. I just can't see how a FMIC will NOT make a difference. A big 4" Garrett core would compliment any 14b or T25 size hairdryer....

Also, you don't need a bigger rad, and you don't need to relocate your alternator to the back of your motor. It is a true pain in the butt to work on. I have had all my 1g DSM's with no heatshields on the 02 housing and alternators in the OEM location with no problems whatsoever. I must be doing something right if I have ran my alternators in the OEM location since 1997 on several DSM's with no issues. Only time I ever killed one was from accidently shorting it out with a wrench or getting water or fluid splashed into it.

Anyways carry on..... time to pull out my popcorn

@ Reza. Wouldn't spending money on making the fmic work with the t25 be a waste of time/money when it will no doubt be swapped out in the near future? Are you sudgesting Mannys first mod be a fmic or am I completely out to lunch?

Isn't that what you posted? I'm not talking about his first mods. A few of you guys give bad advice in general. Just my humble opinion

I would definately get the biggest baddest FMIC once and never again, even on a T-25 turbo car. He's gonna mod the car, he's gonna upgrade the turbo and FMIC. Might as well do it once, do it right!

Yep.. Thats what I posted. I apologize for giving bad advice based on what my personal experience was. Ill just stay out of this one

Well your telling someone not to get a FMIC, when that is probably one of the most important things in making a fast DSM.

I am currently running a 26x12x4" Yonaka FMIC which uses the same core as most of your ebay specials. I am already looking at purchasing a proper ETS or Garrett core, as I realize how much my current FMIC is holding me back. I'll even spend upto $1000 on a proper core as I know how important it is.

Also, removing your catalic converter makes a HUGE difference. It is a bottleneck. I picked up a significant amount of power when I did this years ago on my 14b powered car.

I would definitely say that if you are getting a front mount that get something that will be big enough with what you want in the future, but that's coming from someone who isn't a student.

If I was still a student, I would wait to get a FMIC until you have a turbo that will be something you want to stick with. The J-Pipes are not pocket change and will need to be replaced if you ever switch. If you go to a 14b then you can go for it, that way nothing is replaced when the 16g is done.

Good to know, I have been thinking about doing this, and because of the way that mine is plumbed in I can just remove the cat and piping, and plumb in straight pipe.