Hey Guys,

So my car comes off the road for the winter this weekend and I wanted everyone's input on good next steps for me to take over the winter. Right now I'm running the following:

- Injen Intake with K&N Filter
- EVO III 16g @ 20 psi
- HKS 272/272 cams
- Walbro 255 (not rewired)
- PTE 880cc injectors
- AFPR
- Dumped O2 housing
- 2.5" downpipe to 3" cat back (with cat)
- DSMlink v2.5
- RTM short route FMIC kit
- Genuine Greddy Type RS BOV

Right now the car is tuned relatively well, my CEL is set to 2 degrees of knock which I barely ever see come on however my tune does run pretty low timing (5 degrees advance at the lowest point up to about 13 degrees at 7000 rpm).

I'd like to take this turbo to its limits next year (40-42 lbs/min of air flow) and am debating what my next mods should be, here are my questions:

- Do I need to replace the HG and Studs? If so which brands would work well?
- Will Meth be necessary for this kind of power?

I'm also planning on switching to an EVO III O2 housing and replacing my MAF as my current unit seems to have some gremlins in it.

Basically I'm looking for general opinions on what has worked for people in the past, and what next steps to take. This car will be driven on the street and taken down the 1/4 mile occasionally. Thanks for the input.

A1's and Felpro 1153-1. Turn up the boost.
Do it once, do it right

You'll need meth or race gas to take it to the limits, which will lift the stock head gasket setup.

This is where RZA should jump in and tell you what SHOULD be done, if he doesn't you might be left with useless information that will make for a 'shitbox' of a DSM...

Bam!! like white on rice...he has spoken

let me guess you were gonna suggest a stupid Saturn Alt?

Yup you go it ! Newbs lol

lol...not quite. I 'm not the one who ever suggested a saturn alt. I just had a shitty rebuilder who ripped me off on my dsm alts thus leading to my eventual switch to the saturn alt.

PS..lets keep this clean

On a side note Chris 11.6@120 mph is what I ran on the evo3 16g with lesser mods than you. Buddy of mine ran 11.2@12X on the evo3 16g in his auto. Both full weight cars at around 30psi.

Build the engine to handle the added boost. Nothing wrong with over building an engine. If you are going push that evo3 to its limits you are going to want a strong hg and studs. You will also want to tweek that tune. You may need meth i dont have an opinion on meth seeing as i have never used it other then to get moisture out of used fuel tanks.

+1 on meth. I had never broken anything in my drivetrain, meth fixed that on the 3rd or 4th tuning pull

Switching to a 1g throttle body and porting the 2g intake mani to match will open the flow up a little more.

Winter would be the perfect time to upgrade to ecmlink V3 and go to speed density, considering you're thinking of replacing your maf anyway.

I hope to redo my tint as its peeling off, thats it for me

Thanks for the input guys, where's the best place to pick up the A1's for a 7-Bolt? I don't see them available on RTM.

Removing the head seems daunting to me, I was taking a look tonight and it seems like ALOT of components have to come off, is there anyone around the Peterborough area the would be willing to come down and lend a hand in the coming months? Of course, cold compensation would be provided!

You could just swap out the studs.. Without removing the head.. If you want to. Id just upgrade the turbo myself. Yoi could run the 16g to its max.. add some meth and run a high 11 .. Maybe.. Or you could buy a large frame turbo like a holset or a gt30r and run 11s no prob with out stressing it out. My 20g is almost maxed at 46lbs and im running high 12s. Course I still have some work to do...and that darn saturn alt may be slowing me down.

Pulling your engine in half may seem a bit intimidating your first time, but it really isn't that difficult. There are plenty of good how-to's on the web, and your service manual is your friend.

The other thing you'll want is ziplock bags and a permanent marker. When you pull something off, bag it and tag it

I don't get it... the 16G is capable of great power. It's not broken.

Why is he buying a new turbo again?

those cooling fins is just too much aero drag for your crank

Because you can't make big power on a little turbo. Come on Jeremy smarten up.

its real stressfull and complicated to make big power on a little turbo.. If changing a head seems daunting, then running low 11s on a 16g turbo may not be the right path. At least the bigger turbo will make power easier and more fogiveing.

Try as I might, I am finding it quite impossible to see where Chris said anything about running low 11s.

He said he wants to run his 16G to its max. You tell him in order to do that he needs a new turbo. It just confuses me is all.

Its was reza... Who said 11s. I just suggested what mod I would do if i were him. And suggesting why a large turbo would be better. Wether he wants 11s or 13s.

I'd like to get all I can out of the Evo III before upgrading, any more lag and I feel as though the car would not be as fun on the street (remember I'm also running 272/272 cams which take a bit out of the low end).

I've seen a lot of success stories of guys running 25+ psi on the E3 so I'd like to go that route.

Re-wire the 255 when you install it. If you go SD, skip the Greddy BOV & go with a Tial (by far the best BOV I've owned). V3 Link is far superior to V2.5. I'd skip the PTE injectors, in the past their flow was over rated slightly. Look at FIC, & if your doing it & think you may ever go larger then an evoIII, go bigger, so you don't have to do it again. FIC 1050's would be a good choice. HKS are tried and true but I'd say their are now better options that are actually a bit cheaper, Kelford or GSC make some top notch cams.

It's a good route man. A few tweeks to the tune and you will be happy. No reason to have a big laggy turbo for the street.

Whatever... They just dont like me lol... Holsets and ballbearing turbos will spool fast enough for the street. There are many larger turbos spooling almost as fast as the evo16g and make way more power. But if yer gonna stick with the 16g then you should be able to max it out with what you have. Im at 46lbs with 950cc injectors and only 70%duty on my injectors. I would upgrade the studs tho.. Maybe upgrade to v3 and then consontraite on making the motor and drivetrain stronger

I bet a 30 psi pull on my FP Red would change your opinion

GEEZ, he's not going to stress out his 16g running it to the max. I ran mid to high 11's on the 16g day in and day out, back to back passes on a completely stock motor, with no "stress" on the 16g AT ALL! On 16 psi with a side mount intercooler and 16g I ran mid 12's.

Anyways he's asking how to max out his current setup. I'm with Jeremy here You don't need a 20g to run 11's, lol. Get a good headgasket setup and turn up the boost. Have fun. Stay on this path and you won't end up with big turbo highly modified, built motor DSM that clicks off 12's in the 1/4

I'd rather have a 16g high 11 second car than a big turbo high 11 second car. Your not going to kill your 16g running 30 psi and you can do this all day for years over and over and for hundreds of thousand of km's. I am living proof of this

If anyone here wants to prove me wrong, prove it with some facts, not some cry baby sh!t.

I figured, might as well put up some threads from the past. Enjoy!

http://www.ca.dsm.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=244411&page=1

http://www.ca.dsm.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=229171&page=1

http://www.ca.dsm.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=247314&page=1

http://www.ca.dsm.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=252320#Post252320

Agreed. Listen to tried, tested and true Mr Reza there.
Don't turn into me and overcomplicate the F*&k out of things...

The best times I had with my dsm, was rocking a boost controller at the track and clicking 13.3's all day long in a full weight near stock car with bald tires... coulda been a bracket car...

As we say at work, Keep it simple stupid

So Reza based on what your setup was with the 650s and meth would I assume you would recommend someone go with meth before putting that turbo to rest.
I have always said that when I am struggling to get anything more from the 16g that I would put meth on and see what she can do.
Also is the fact that I always run 91 going to make a huge difference on what I can get out of the turbo? or would it mean i just need more meth

I think I was running a single M10 nozzle with the 16g at 30 psi.
An M7 should even do the job to push the turbo upto 30 psi.

Race gas will also let you run the same amount of boost without meth. I'd probably go with meth injection as a kit will run you what it costs for two tanks of C16 End result is pretty much the same.

I had the 650's maxed out with the meth injection. If you plan to keep it on 91 octane, add more meth and it should do the job. There is a guy in the US, Lancerman who was running 10's on pump gas (91 octane) and meth injection, before most of the DSM world even had a clue.

Cool!! I have 1000s so hopefully they won't be too close to maxed out.
Will start to look at meth kits in a little while.
Thanks

My 780s aren't maxed yet with my FP Green running 25psi, and only an M5 nozzle for meth. Your 1000s will last you a long time, Bryan.

suspension bushings?

I run FIC 1050's, w/meth (M10 or M12 can't remember on the 150psi pump). At 60lb/min I'm around 70% IDC.

Good to know boys!! Thanks!

And that silly kent bought 2150cc wheres he gonna go.


I'd say L19 or A1's for sure. And turn up the boost. I was hogging 39-41Lbs on my 16g not long ago before i retired it.

I guess the reason i suggest a big turbo is cause I have the smallest turbo in my group. And even the br20g holding 26psi up to and past 7000rpms.. Feels like nothing compared to the other local guys with there big turbos.

Its funny tho.... When you have a N/A motor and you boost it. You use a huge turbo and max out the engine. But when you have a boosted car, you have a very potential engine... But only max out the turbo. (Or limit yourself to what the turbo will give ya) You rarely ever see small turbos like 16gs on NA cars cause itsvway easier to make more power at safer lower boost levels with big turbos. You will make he same power running 20 psi on a holset compared to running 30psi on a 16g.

With that theory you might as well slap on a GT4202r and run 15psi to make the same power.

What you are forgetting is the spool time. I was seeing 20 psi by 3000 rpm on the 16g. A holset or 20g won't do that. At the end of the day its all about how much cylinder pressure you are creating. For a certain goal I would take the quickest spooling turbo. This is why my HTA3586 is in a DSM housing. A quicker spooling car is more fun to drive.

Otherwise, I'd be like every other Honda dude out there who has to have a big turbo GT35R on their car and only run 9 psi of boost. If I was NA and FWD sure I'd go bigger turbo as a quicker spooling turbo will just make you fry the wheels more. We own AWD DSM's, not NA FWD cars.

Bingo.

Don't get me wrong; I love my FP Green. But if it hadn't come with the car, I would be running a smaller turbo. The power it makes is impressive, but at 25psi, I could be making this power on a smaller turbo. And then I might not have to downshift every time I want to accelerate.

Exactly. My current setup will not even spoolup in 5th gear. Well it does a little. On the 16g, I never had to downshift to 4th gear on the highway at all unless required. 5th gear WOT pulls from any rpm and the car would just fly.

So is it even worth it for me to switch to the FP 68HTA, HX35 or just spend that extra money on a worthwhile meth kit and keep my low km E316G?

PS. sorry to hijack I've just been battling with this for some time now and would like real world advice.

i donno.. my 20g spools way too fast.. Im running outa first gear way too soon for my liking.

But again... This isnt about whats the only way to go... Its about.... You .. Im only .. Again.... Answering the question the OP had asked. With my opinion.. And again its a valid opinion. And you run it into the ground like its stupid.

Bud.. You can stay with the 16g that spools at an aclaimed 3000rpms... Which is giving it alot of credit. I would upgrade the turbo to really enjoy the car. Holsets will spool up at 3500rpms. Gt30rs spool real fast aswell. When you run the 1/4 you never see under 4000anyway. Its up to you.. If you own your dsm for a long time and do alot of modding.. You will upgrade eventually.
Its just a suggestion... You asked ... Didnt you.

Well it depends on what your ultimate goal is Terry?

The HTA68 is a killer turbo and spools just as fast as a regular 16g with more top end. You can't go wrong with it. But honestly I would atleast get that 16g to minimum 26 psi and have some fun with it. If your goals are bigger than this, then sure go bigger.

I got used to my mid-high 11 second 16g car and wanted more power. I'm even used to my turbo now and still want more. I'm always looking at ways to make the car more faster yet still fun on the street. It's a never ending battle for me

Top end killer power, so I can pump Supras and bikes on the highway is my goal

I know the meth world is pretty solid.. But keep in mind thatvif something goes wrong with your meth at 32 psi in a very high revving 16g... And bad things WILL happen. But making the same power on a hx35 with out meth.. And you can worry about whats next. Even at 32 psi with the hx35 .. It will be running way cooler then the 32psi 16g. Add meth to that and see if you ever go back to a little turbo again.

Jay, if you read Chris's original post, he was looking at maxing out his current setup, not what turbo he should get. I'm just telling him how to do it by cranking up the boost and making the headgasket setup bulletproof. Keepin it simple my man!

...and your 20g doesn't hit 20 psi by 3,000 rpm. Any DSMer with any turbo claims 1st gear goes by too fast. You're not the only one

Not saying it does Reza... Im sayingmy slower spooling 20g spools fast enough . That if the only reason he shys away from bigger turbos is the spool factor.. Then he needs to understand that bigger turbos spool just fine for the street. And that if he is going to upgrade his car.. A larger turbo may be the best bang for the buck... He has the sapporting mods for a biger turbo... Why not.

Sure he will have fun with the 16g.. But i see it as old school.. Turbos have come along way since then.

Head studs/Good head gasket, upgrade to V3 run SD and if you are planing on pump gas, meth would be a good idea.

And yet another thread turned into a argument about pointless sh!t!

says the guy who is running a BR20g. If that ain't old school, I don't know what is

A 20g is more old school than the evoIII 16g. Maybe you should upgrade

I plan on it.. But i was biulding the car first. He is way past that point.

All you guys have it wrong, a 2.3 AND a bigger turbo is the answer.

No complaints on thread jacking from my end guys, I haven't looked at this thread since last night so I was surprised at the amount of posts, keep the debate going!

On a side note, my excitement over this winter is because this is the first time I will have owned a DSM that isn't my DD, I'm picking up my winter car on Saturday so finally I will be able to tear deep into this car without having to worry about getting it back on the road for Monday morning.

The E3 16g just seems to keep building power all the way up to 20psi and I feel like I'm cutting the boost off way too low. I would like to see what this turbo is capable of and as I mentioned before, I will be happier to spend my money on even greater supporting mods than to strap a new snail in there.

Very excited for the spring results!

So correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like the felpro gasket that Reza recommended will require me to machine the head and block surface prior kt installation, is that right. If so Is there an option that doesn't require this additional work? I wasn't planning on pulling the motor.

You are correct: it is highly recommended that you deck the block and head prior to running a metal headgasket.

If you would prefer to avoid this, many people have had great success with the OEM composite headgasket, found here, when coupled with ARP L19s or the A1s. It is the setup I'm currently using (with L19s), and have had no problems. It should outlast your 16g.

OEM composite gasket with a set of L19's will likely hold anything you are ready to throw at it. I've run up to 30psi on a $26 Felpro composite and regular ARP studs with no issues to date.

As Jeremy stated. Composite gaskets are more forgiving. There is a certain Ra value that the head and block need to machined to. Any good engine builder will tell you that.

Although some people just clean it up and throw a MLS gasket in and it has worked for them.

You should have the head checked for straightness and milled either way, The block I would just clean up with a scothbright pad and some air intake cleaner. Some guy's like sandpaper but I am a non believer.

I agree there, no sandpaper on my block!

When I swapped heads in August, I just cleaned up my block with a scotch brite pad and brake cleaner. You just want to make sure all the old gasket material is off. The scotch brite pads are plastic so they won't take off ANY metal; the sandpaper might.

and leave grit in your sh!t.....

I hear that becomes more of a problem as you get older.

Wait what are talking about again?

sandpaper... and who you calling old?

Ryan Laliberte has a set of brand new L19s for a 7bolt up in the for sale section for a very good price. You'll just have to call up ARP for the missing stud. I've heard they are very hassle-free, and as Ryan says in his ad they will likely send you a new stud free of charge.

Okay, so my plan would be to have just the head machined flat, clean the block surface with a scotch brite and then use the composite mitsu gasket in combination with A1's or L19's.

All-in-all this setup should work well for an e316g at ~30 psi?

No need to have it machined for a composite gasket if everything checks out reasonably flat.

Yeah agreed, your other option is just replace the head studs. There are guides on how to do it without replacing the gasket, generally you remove and replace one stud at a time.

Thats what I said.. Im gonna replace the studs in my 1g before the snow hits. I need to seal the vc anyway.

If you do the one by one method, I'd advise you find out how many turns it takes to get the stud turned down all the way, I've seen more than one stud bottom out prematurely on some oil down in the hole and only end up grabbing about half the length of threads.

hmm, interesting option. Jason, do you know where I could get that information about how many turns each stud will go down?

Has anyone done the one-by-one method themselves? Would each stud be installed and then fully torqued before moving on to the next one or do you torque them to the first spec, proceed to the next stud, and then after they are all installed you torque them to the final spec in order?

I think that I'll do a compression test on the motor since I haven't checked it in 40,000km. If the numbers look good I'll assume the current HG is in decent shape and I'll go ahead with just doing the studs.

I don't know off hand but I would check with my spare block to see how many turns would be a safe approximate value, every block is slightly different. One or 2 turns difference wouldn't be an issue but if one went in 15 turns and the next only 8, you'd know that you hadn't reached the proper depth.

I haven't done the one by one method personally but I'm pretty sure you go the 3 step torque sequence on each stud then once you get them all done, you just go over them all in the proper sequence at the final torque value. There's a guide floating around somewhere.

I changer the studs that way once.. Replaced and torqued each one before removing the next. I did it in sequence like installing new studs. Dont know if that mattered. I measured the stud hole depth and premeasured the studs so I knew they were installed deep enough. I also used long Qtips to remove the oil.

Only problem is I could not chase the threads so i gave the studs alittle more torque incase the warn threads were effecting my torque readings. I dont remember any of the measurements.. Sorry.

Should the studs not go as deep as the old head bolts? Pretty easy measurement it they do.

I dont know if the stock bolts would go in as deep as studs do. Never checked.

Every Head bolt hole on a 6 bolt block is only 1.5" deep and are all blind holes.

Now keep in mid that he will be measuring with the head on.. And a 7bolt.

The L19s use all of their threads on the block side. Count your threads; that's how many turns you'll need to bottom them. If you get within 1-2 turns of what you counted you should be fine.

I've never used the method of just replacing one stud at a time. I'm not sure I would trust an old, weathered head gasket that you just squish a bit harder to hang on to all that boost. I know you're tempted by the idea of not having to remove the head, but if you've got the time... trust me it's nowhere near as hard as you think it is. You'll learn a lot about wrenching as well as the current state of your engine by pulling it apart.

I have never just replaced the headstuds one at a time, but it is worth a shot like the guys mentioned above. Worst case scenario if the head ever lifts is that you'll just get on with the original deal with changing the headgasket.

Once the head bolt is out of each hole, you'll need to clean out all the oil properly so that the new stud can go all the way in. No point in doing this job half assed. Once each stud bottoms out, back it off a 1/4 turn. Do this for all the studs. This will ensure the torque is applied evenly accross the threads. If all the studs are not level, remove the stud and clean the hole up of all oil.

I believe it's a much more common thing on Evo's to do the one by one method because they already have an MLS gasket from the factory and just need the extra clamping force.

Ifvyou only change 1 stud at a time.. I really dont think you will bother the headgasket.

But again it depends on yer budget. If yer gonna replace the head gasket. Then might aswell do a timing belt change. Balance shaft..replace the intake manifold gasket with one of those plastic gaskets. have your TB rebiult.

Or spend some money on a spare motor and spend the winter rebiulding it. Then in the spring you can have a stronger .. Fresher motor and a day or two down time to swap it in. It may be better then ripping into your running motor and finding out its too much work and then not having a running dsm.

Well, there's been a turn of events. I just did a compression test and the results were not good

Dry Wet
95 psi 180 psi
85 psi 85 psi
40 psi 120 psi
135 psi 120 psi

Looks like she's coming out!

I'm going to redo the test tomorrow night after the battery has been on the trickle charge for 24 hours as the car has been sitting for two weeks now but for this test I let it run for half an hour before starting so I'm not sure how much difference that will make.

Now for the next question, rebuild, or drop in a 6-bolt? Thoughts?

If you can score a good 6 bolt for less than a rebuild, do that, if not rebuild the 7 bolt, either will handle your goals easily.

You should redo the test. Your last results dont make sense. How are you doing you compression test?