RC 1000cc Injectors
#421132
January 23, 2014 12:54 pm UTC
January 23, 2014 12:54 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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So these injectors don't seem to be the most popular as trying to find data on them is very difficult. I spent the summer tuning the car and with everything set in the log I have linked the car idled great and it cruised great. This was all done following the guide "tuning a 1g sd car with no maf" The car is still cruising great but the idle is really rich, afr is sitting around 12. Before I go adjusting the SD table with CombinedFT I was hoping to get some comments on my injector setting. Oh and my front02 sim is not cycling. Global = -48.8 and deadtime = 45 https://www.dropbox.com/s/qylj50qtfgg1unx/log.2013.12.28-01.elg
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421138
January 23, 2014 04:01 pm UTC
January 23, 2014 04:01 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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Hm ok I will do the update later, i didn't think I was that behind.
That's what I got to when tuning, if your STFT Lo is negative that means I need to lower my deadtime. I even started my injectors in the 350 range and after tuning ended at 45. I got to my global through wot tuning, so either these injectors don't flow anything near what they do. That's why I am getting frustrated with them.
Just noticed my SDAirflowPerRev, so I am thinking I can go ahead with make the SD changes. I just want to know if anyone else has the same issue I am having with big injectors.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421139
January 23, 2014 04:38 pm UTC
January 23, 2014 04:38 pm UTC
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Alex Akachinskiy
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Hm ok I will do the update later, i didn't think I was that behind.
That's what I got to when tuning, if your STFT Lo is negative that means I need to lower my deadtime. I even started my injectors in the 350 range and after tuning ended at 45. I got to my global through wot tuning, so either these injectors don't flow anything near what they do. That's why I am getting frustrated with them.
Just noticed my SDAirflowPerRev, so I am thinking I can go ahead with make the SD changes. I just want to know if anyone else has the same issue I am having with big injectors. I recommend you stay away from WOT tuning until you get idle/cruise straight out first. I am also running big injectors similar to yours as well as Terry S. I've noticed your pump is set always on. why? Overall I think your setup is complex to start with. You have SD and front O2 simulated from wideband. Do you have an option to use stock MAF just to get things under control again? I got to my global through wot tuning, so either these injectors don't flow anything near what they do. That's why I am getting frustrated with them. That's why I always recommend to start with idle/cruise first. Your ECU can compensate your tune mistakes so you can't blow it up easily. At WOT fuel compensation is disabled. As said many times before, mechanical problems will cause tuning frustration. You'll need to be absolutely sure your fuel system is working properly and there are no major boost/vacuum leaks. Faulty FPR, FP Gauge, or leaky pump o-ring will cause fuel problems. I would first reset your SD table to defaults (use stock MAF if you can) and start tuning only with Global & deadtimes. You want your [CombinedFT], [LTFT LO], and [LTFT Hi] stabilized first and than you fine tune them with SD table. Try getting them within 5 to 7%(+-) average first.
1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD 1999 Eclipse GST Automagic 1991 3000GT VR-4
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421141
January 23, 2014 04:50 pm UTC
January 23, 2014 04:50 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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I had idle/cruise down great during the summer. Just for starting purposes and for when I want to check fuel pressure.
I am thinking about putting in the stock maf or Terry has offered his 3" so I may do that and setup the table using those.
Ok looks like that the best option so far, will look into getting a maf hooked up and setup my SD table like that, when I originally made the switch I just did it cold turkey.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421142
January 23, 2014 05:19 pm UTC
January 23, 2014 05:19 pm UTC
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Stephan Tanchak
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Is your idle always at 12:1?
My idle is at 12:1 a little after initial startup, then after driving, the idle goes to where it should, around 14.7-14.8:1.
Also, on my first pull, the afr's go to about 10.0:1, but are fine thereafter.
Do you get that too Bryan?
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421143
January 23, 2014 05:37 pm UTC
January 23, 2014 05:37 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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It is now, but in the summer everything was perfect.
Is it your tipin?
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421146
January 23, 2014 06:41 pm UTC
January 23, 2014 06:41 pm UTC
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Stephan Tanchak
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Could be the tip-in. I was playing with the adjustments and its been getting slightly better, but after the first pull, it's fine. Have to fix the exhaust before I do anything else though.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421187
January 24, 2014 12:22 pm UTC
January 24, 2014 12:22 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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No I haven't Stephan, I don't have my 450s anymore so I don't have anything to run with if I take these out. I think I might just take the maf route, it's going to get my SD table perfect(at least I hope) and in the process my fuel trims should be setup well too.
Jroslaw, if I didn't spend hours tuning my car in the summer to line everything up I would agree with you. You don't make changes to the SD table if it means that the SD table is going to have values well over 100.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421191
January 24, 2014 01:19 pm UTC
January 24, 2014 01:19 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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Yeah give me a few hours, I will go through my logs and link one.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421194
January 24, 2014 02:34 pm UTC
January 24, 2014 02:34 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421196
January 24, 2014 02:42 pm UTC
January 24, 2014 02:42 pm UTC
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Thanks Rob and Nick, I didn't realize this was an issue. Rob thanks for calling me on that one, haha. Will do an update today before I head out and then go for a cruise and see how it looks afterwards.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421204
January 24, 2014 06:07 pm UTC
January 24, 2014 06:07 pm UTC
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ok upgrade is done, will let you all know how today goes.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421243
January 25, 2014 03:15 pm UTC
January 25, 2014 03:15 pm UTC
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I didn't end up going out last night, I will probably head out in a little bit and post up the log. Thanks for the help guys.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421247
January 25, 2014 05:16 pm UTC
January 25, 2014 05:16 pm UTC
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I think I did a return because my STFT wasn't around 0 anymore I think today I will be doing some tuning, and enjoying the snow
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421253
January 25, 2014 09:35 pm UTC
January 25, 2014 09:35 pm UTC
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421259
January 25, 2014 11:16 pm UTC
January 25, 2014 11:16 pm UTC
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Nick Colonna
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two things I'm going to suggest to start with. It looks like you have a vacuum/boost leak. Idle is high and surging with ISCpostion at 0. It would be best to fix that. Second, contrary to that article written by highboost, the loadscale should be 100% for a 2L. If you follow the history of where the 114.8% number came from, you'll see that a bug was found in the code, and when the bug was fixed, they needed to put that value in there to prevent people's tunes from changing during a firmware upgrade. Anybody starting from scratch with the newer (bug free) firmware should just use the proper value.
You said you adjusted global fuel based on WOT which I agree with in general, but it looks like you may be compensating for a fuel delivery problem with a global fuel value that is too large (less negative). this may explain the low deadtime and low airflow/rev at idle. Do you have any way to monitor or log fuel pressure?
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421263
January 26, 2014 05:09 am UTC
January 26, 2014 05:09 am UTC
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Nick the boost leak is the throttle body so I am going to get that fixed soon cause I keep putting it off.
Hm, I am hoping that it's not my fuel pressure regulator, I have not been having much luck with them. I currently don't have anything to log it and was searching for a way previously to do so with link but it seems not many people have done this. The other thing I can think of is the issue with broken studs on the sending unit, but from what I can tell when filling up the tank, it is sealing.
Ok I will disable the idle switch and just have it simulated. Ok will grab an idle log and see how that looks.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421274
January 26, 2014 07:08 pm UTC
January 26, 2014 07:08 pm UTC
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Good call nick, I will give that a try and see if that work, will need to figure out a way to add some air pressure to the afpr, in a controllable way.
ECMLink lite RC 1000s Fuel lab AFPR -6 an tank to rail (with aftermarket filter) Walboro 255 hp
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421287
January 26, 2014 10:04 pm UTC
January 26, 2014 10:04 pm UTC
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Well I just tested with just boost, using the compressor and everything looks good. I will go take a look at CTC for a vacuum pump, also going to start fresh today and see how that looks afterwards.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421288
January 26, 2014 10:09 pm UTC
January 26, 2014 10:09 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421307
January 27, 2014 02:17 am UTC
January 27, 2014 02:17 am UTC
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LOL well than I am good there!
No they weren't brand new but I was told there was only 5000k on them, there were from Sven.
Also I remembered why the logs I gave you were different. After that summer one I was doing a bunch of WOT tuning and trying to get my AFR lined up with the est, the global that it's at now did that. Maybe when the roads are nice and clean I will do another WOT and see if that is still the case.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421317
January 27, 2014 12:19 pm UTC
January 27, 2014 12:19 pm UTC
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Here is the last log of the month the pull at the end lines up through the pull but there are still miss matches through the rest. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ap1nw4i6vuobp8f/log.2013.06.17-04.elg
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421343
January 28, 2014 02:30 am UTC
January 28, 2014 02:30 am UTC
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Yeah it's possible that it needs calibration, I can do it tomorrow and see if that makes a difference. I am not sure how to wire it in if I did that, I cut the line for the stock o2 to put the wideband in. I will double check again it drops about 10 (it's supposed the be a half psi for every hg of vacuum right?)
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421345
January 28, 2014 04:09 am UTC
January 28, 2014 04:09 am UTC
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Yes I did. Are you guys suggesting I set it up so I am running both?
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421349
January 28, 2014 12:58 pm UTC
January 28, 2014 12:58 pm UTC
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421353
January 28, 2014 03:21 pm UTC
January 28, 2014 03:21 pm UTC
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Yeah I think in the long run I would like to weld in a second bung for the wideband and the narrow band. Let me know what input you will be using for this as I am unsure what the best option for that.
I had originally attempted to get my airflowperrev to be around that and the idle was very unstable, when I shifted it under that it evened it out. After the recal I will do a full retune, that way I know everything is fresh. The roads are looking clear enough so I will go for a WOT run after calibrating the wideband and before setting up my global to see how that looks.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421365
January 28, 2014 06:57 pm UTC
January 28, 2014 06:57 pm UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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Yeah I think in the long run I would like to weld in a second bung for the wideband and the narrow band. Let me know what input you will be using for this as I am unsure what the best option for that.
I had originally attempted to get my airflowperrev to be around that and the idle was very unstable, when I shifted it under that it evened it out. After the recal I will do a full retune, that way I know everything is fresh. The roads are looking clear enough so I will go for a WOT run after calibrating the wideband and before setting up my global to see how that looks. Keep in mind the 1G's only had one O2 sensor stock, and less overall ECU inputs, so it will take a little more work than you probably think.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421370
January 28, 2014 07:44 pm UTC
January 28, 2014 07:44 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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That was why I hadn't put it in in the first place, I never really found a concrete answer as to where to wire it in.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421403
January 29, 2014 11:57 pm UTC
January 29, 2014 11:57 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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Alright so I went out and as you can see my global looks good based on the little WOT run I did. I am not sure what to do about my deadtime cause it's getting to the point that it will be down to zero to get my fuel trims to line up, should I start fresh with the calculated global and then use the deadtime that was suggested in that link and go from there? Thanks for all your help guys, I really appreciate it! https://www.dropbox.com/s/kvxt8q5xm1ug6kf/log.2014.01.29-02.elg
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421416
January 30, 2014 01:32 am UTC
January 30, 2014 01:32 am UTC
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Stephan Tanchak
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The deadtime settings are weird indeed! You definitely have too much deadtime, because if you do the SD VE adjust, you can see that its pulling a lot of fuel at idle to compensate. Perhaps play in the direct access part and lower it based on voltage. If anything, lower the deadtime at higher voltages, because your LTFT Hi is pretty good while you have lower voltages, but your LTFT Lo is terrible. Here, this maybe. https://www.dropbox.com/s/pqfgie3oew8j9ow/Bryanlogadjusted.edaAlso your ISC position is 0 at idle. Mine doesn't like the winter though and will jump around, most likely due to a bad FIAV though. Also, assuming you are still on a 16g, antilag is not going to keep that little guy's bearings happy for long.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421427
January 30, 2014 02:37 am UTC
January 30, 2014 02:37 am UTC
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Stephan Tanchak
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Have you seen his deadtime settings and how low they are?
Then take a look at his LTFT Hi. The latter has only a -2.5%, but his Lo, or idle, is -12.5%. His battery voltage at idle is 14.* but his battery voltage at WOT is 12.*. So his deadtime settings at lower voltages is good, but at idle when he has more voltage, his ecu is pulling tons of fuel.
Bryan, you could try pulling a tiny bit of global fuel as both are in the negative and see how that affects things.
1998 Eclipse GSX Spyder 11.5@124 AWD Talons: 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Team Big Turbo
PHP: 2
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421459
January 30, 2014 02:06 pm UTC
January 30, 2014 02:06 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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OP
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Ok thanks guys, I think I am going to reset SD to stock, and reset global and deadtime to what was mentioned in that thread and go from there. Guys those were the steps that I took in the summer that's why I don't understand why I have to start from scratch, also need to take care of the boost leak on the throttle body too which I don't think is helping. What are your guys thoughts on the deadtime adjustment for the injectors based on voltage? I am wondering if that should have been left alone. Stephen, I am pretty sure the wideband is good. Is there a way that I can test the injectors at home? Jroslaw if I am still struggling after a while I may just take you up on that offer. Stephan, maybe I should be looking at getting another turbo
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421476
January 30, 2014 04:34 pm UTC
January 30, 2014 04:34 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 35 Ancaster, ON
Nick Colonna
Newbie on Probation
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Newbie on Probation
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 35
Ancaster, ON
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FWIW I think Stephan's suggestion to adjust the deadtime per volt is very good. Also I wouldn't trust that link you posted for deadtimes. They show the FIC850's having less deadtime than stock DSM 450's!
It may be a long shot, but you can also try to email RC engineering with the exact injector part# you have and ask them if they have deadtime specs at various voltages for those injectors when they are used with a resistor box (not using a peak and hold driver). You may still need to tweak the deadtimes up or down, but hopefully the slope of that line will be much closer to actual.
also, theres no way to test the injectors at home, so if you can take Stephen up on the injector service for $40, its a steal. you r car will obviously be down a few days though.
Last edited by Nick Colonna; January 30, 2014 04:37 pm UTC.
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421485
January 30, 2014 06:20 pm UTC
January 30, 2014 06:20 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Thanks Nick, I will send them an email, that would probably make my life a lot easier if I can make that happen.
Haha Stephan, I am not looking to spend that kind of money yet, I would be looking for something with similar characteristics as the 16g.
Also I seem to have forgotten what the stock deadtime is for 450s, does anyone have that?
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421486
January 30, 2014 06:23 pm UTC
January 30, 2014 06:23 pm UTC
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,669 Toronto, Ontario
Stephan Tanchak
Insane Member
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Insane Member
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Toronto, Ontario
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Haha. Call me crazy, but I love turbo's that take for ever to spool but hit hard.
Hopefully they have an answer. Didn't realize before, but if its a sudden change to weird fuel trims, Stephen's probably right that something is wrong.
Is your fuel pressure normal?
1998 Eclipse GSX Spyder 11.5@124 AWD Talons: 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Team Big Turbo
PHP: 2
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421488
January 30, 2014 07:24 pm UTC
January 30, 2014 07:24 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Well I set the fuel pressure to 43, other than that fuel pressure seems to be working fine.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421585
January 31, 2014 12:59 pm UTC
January 31, 2014 12:59 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Haha, I know. Thanks Stephen!
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421668
February 02, 2014 06:40 pm UTC
February 02, 2014 06:40 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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So I was just about to send the email when I found some info. RC Engineering 1000cc Low Impedance .68ms @ 13.8v @ 38psi 1.06ms @ 8.66v @ 38psi Battery voltage correction: .07ms/v .83ms @ 13.8v @ 38psi w/DSM injector resistor (6 ohms) 1.48ms @ 8.66v @ 38psi w/DSM injector resistor (6 ohms) Battery voltage correction: .13ms/v Flow rate: 981cc @ 38psi Tests on the RC 1000cc injector were performed at 38psi and with a DSM injector ballast resistor to accurately represent the injector operating environment when swapped into the DSM platform. http://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10407
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421687
February 03, 2014 12:21 pm UTC
February 03, 2014 12:21 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Just an update, I spent some time working on it yesterday and spoke with jroslaw. The car will be staying as it is, I have reduced the deadtime more so that my idle is getting the correct STFT, until I replace the throttle body. After trying to set it up closer to what I had been reading the car would not warm start or idle very well. As soon as the throttle body is replaced we will be taking a stab at seeing how everything works.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421693
February 03, 2014 07:27 pm UTC
February 03, 2014 07:27 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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This is what they sent me. I have sent them an email to ask if they have the other voltages.
cc/min Ohm 10v 11v 12v 13v 14v 15v 1000 3 1.17 0.95 0.8 0.67 0.56 0.46
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: RC 1000cc Injectors
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#421743
February 04, 2014 12:15 pm UTC
February 04, 2014 12:15 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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