|
Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
#426925
May 22, 2014 11:47 pm UTC
May 22, 2014 11:47 pm UTC
|
Joined: Jan 1970
Posts: 4,971
Beamsville, Ont, Canada
Steve Kinnaird
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
|
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Jan 1970
Posts: 4,971
Beamsville, Ont, Canada
|
So, the bike I bought this year has a Bazzaz Z-fi QS TC w/ AFM. (Think DSMLink for motorcycles). With it, I can enter a map of target A/F ratios (RPM vs TPS), set it to "datalog" and go riding. When I'm done, I simply look at the changes it suggests, click "accept" (or not) and my tooning is done. I know, it takes all the fun out of pouring over datalogs for hours, making adjustments, and repeating..  I'm surprised this isn't available for more vehicles. (or is it, and I just don't know about it). Hope to start actually using it tomorrow, thanks to Ziggy's superfast shipping! (needed a wideband sensor).
Now, I'll have all kinds of time to talk about DSMs, because I won't be busy fixing mine!
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Steve Kinnaird]
#426930
May 23, 2014 12:19 am UTC
May 23, 2014 12:19 am UTC
|
Joined: Jan 1970
Posts: 4,971
Beamsville, Ont, Canada
Steve Kinnaird
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
|
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Jan 1970
Posts: 4,971
Beamsville, Ont, Canada
|
I took a quick look on the DSMLink website, but couldn't find what you were talking about, Stephan.
The FT at the end of the menu you mentioned makes me think it's based on fuel trims (closed loop). I'm referring to open loop tuning.
Now, I'll have all kinds of time to talk about DSMs, because I won't be busy fixing mine!
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Steve Kinnaird]
#426945
May 23, 2014 04:09 am UTC
May 23, 2014 04:09 am UTC
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,669
Toronto, Ontario
Stephan Tanchak
Insane Member
|
Insane Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,669
Toronto, Ontario
|
I think the AEM V2 has that auto tune feature. Not the V1 though. Once injectors are dialed in though, tuning is easy!
1998 Eclipse GSX Spyder 11.5@124
AWD Talons: 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Team Big Turbo
PHP: 2
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Stephan Tanchak]
#426949
May 23, 2014 04:38 am UTC
May 23, 2014 04:38 am UTC
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,873
Los Angeles, California
Alex Akachinskiy
Insane Member
|
Insane Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,873
Los Angeles, California
|
There was a discussing about auto tune on ECM Link forums. I bumped into it last year when i was learning SD. Here is what Thomas had to say about the idea: FWIW, the delay between ECU commanded mixture change and WB reported value is the single biggest problem with doing an "auto tune" type thing. That delay changes based on airflow rate, so you can't just put in a fixed compensation. It has to change constantly and it's not all that easy to collect the data to determine that curve.
For the general approach being described here, I'm sure you're expected to find the "shift" yourself and use appropriately matched/averaged values. WB delay was related to setups where WB is used in downpipes. I also suspect there is short delay while transmitting data between gauge and ECU. General approach is the Excel spreadsheet method that Jason D posted above. I personally think auto tune is possible and should be based on same approach as closedloop(idle/cruise) operation using short/mid/long memory fuel trims.
Last edited by Alex Akachinskiy; May 23, 2014 04:45 am UTC.
1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
1999 Eclipse GST Automagic
1991 3000GT VR-4
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Steve Kinnaird]
#426954
May 23, 2014 10:19 am UTC
May 23, 2014 10:19 am UTC
|
Joined: Jan 1970
Posts: 4,971
Beamsville, Ont, Canada
Steve Kinnaird
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
|
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Jan 1970
Posts: 4,971
Beamsville, Ont, Canada
|
Ok, so I just haven't looked around enough. Not surprising.  Interesting thoughts about delay time from air entering the engine until the feedback is complete. Definitely something to make note of. Especially at high RPM. Jeff: I know. They should have just called it BikeLink.
Last edited by Steve Kinnaird; May 23, 2014 10:20 am UTC.
Now, I'll have all kinds of time to talk about DSMs, because I won't be busy fixing mine!
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Jason Drew]
#426978
May 23, 2014 08:09 pm UTC
May 23, 2014 08:09 pm UTC
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398
Ajax, ON
Reza Mirza
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
|
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398
Ajax, ON
|
majority of dsm'ers are lazy and know very little about their cars and would just assume whatever the ecu came up with was right and just roll with it then later blow up their sh!t and blame it on ecmlink. Agreed 100%. This is why I don't tune peoples cars either. It's a DSM. At some point, something will fail and the last person to touch/tune the car will get the blame. Only thing I do now is build transmissions. Blow it up, bring it back and I'll tell you exactly what you did once I open her up You can't BS me
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Steve Kinnaird]
#426979
May 23, 2014 08:18 pm UTC
May 23, 2014 08:18 pm UTC
|
Joined: Jan 1970
Posts: 4,971
Beamsville, Ont, Canada
Steve Kinnaird
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
|
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Jan 1970
Posts: 4,971
Beamsville, Ont, Canada
|
The major reasons for getting BikeLink (I have Bazzaz, Power Commander is another popular one) are the same as getting Link for a DSM. (sort of). Most guys replace the filter with a K&N (mostly out of habit, or 'cause it's cool, I suppose) and the exhaust with something much less ugly than stock. (Have you SEEN some of the stock exhausts?? Ugh.) Bike's are SD, so this causes them to run leaner than stock. Some areas of the fuel maps are pig rich (for the same "dumb owner safety net" reasons as cars. Solve all this by getting BikeLink. Necessary? Probably not. Cool in a nerdy way? You betcha! In addition to the fuel maps/autotune features, mine has selectable fuel maps (2) switcheable on the fly with a switch on the handle bar. Aftermarket traction control (uses some sort of sorcery to determine if the crank acceleration rate is too high. If it is, you must be spinning the rear, so it cuts power to regain traction. This TC is also completely mapable (is that a word) for sensitivity, and "aggressiveness" of the power cut based on rpm/throttle/gear. Also has an adjusting dial mounted on the handlebar. (starts raining? Turn it up...) Qs (quickshifter) is basically NLTS. No clutch either though. Reverse the shift pattern (1 up/5 down) keep that grip twisted the whole time, and just stomp on that lever to change gears. This is probably the feature that makes the most grins. (and potential to get into trouble. Makes ya want to just keep on keepin' on through those gears...) By now, I've probably bored you guys. (Blame Jeff ) Anyway, I can't just leave my crap alone, so this is what I'm playing with now. BTW: sensor ordered from RTM yesterday morning, and waiting on my porch when I got home. Yippee, let the fun begin!
Now, I'll have all kinds of time to talk about DSMs, because I won't be busy fixing mine!
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Steve Kinnaird]
#426999
May 24, 2014 12:44 am UTC
May 24, 2014 12:44 am UTC
|
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 6,079
Mississauga, Ontario
Jeff Mitchell
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
|
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 6,079
Mississauga, Ontario
|
The major reasons for getting BikeLink (I have Bazzaz, Power Commander is another popular one) are the same as getting Link for a DSM. (sort of). Most guys replace the filter with a K&N (mostly out of habit, or 'cause it's cool, I suppose) and the exhaust with something much less ugly than stock. (Have you SEEN some of the stock exhausts?? Ugh.) Bike's are SD, so this causes them to run leaner than stock. Some areas of the fuel maps are pig rich (for the same "dumb owner safety net" reasons as cars. Solve all this by getting BikeLink. Necessary? Probably not. Cool in a nerdy way? You betcha! In addition to the fuel maps/autotune features, mine has selectable fuel maps (2) switcheable on the fly with a switch on the handle bar. Aftermarket traction control (uses some sort of sorcery to determine if the crank acceleration rate is too high. If it is, you must be spinning the rear, so it cuts power to regain traction. This TC is also completely mapable (is that a word) for sensitivity, and "aggressiveness" of the power cut based on rpm/throttle/gear. Also has an adjusting dial mounted on the handlebar. (starts raining? Turn it up...) Qs (quickshifter) is basically NLTS. No clutch either though. Reverse the shift pattern (1 up/5 down) keep that grip twisted the whole time, and just stomp on that lever to change gears. This is probably the feature that makes the most grins. (and potential to get into trouble. Makes ya want to just keep on keepin' on through those gears...) By now, I've probably bored you guys. (Blame Jeff ) Anyway, I can't just leave my crap alone, so this is what I'm playing with now. BTW: sensor ordered from RTM yesterday morning, and waiting on my porch when I got home. Yippee, let the fun begin! Wow that actually sounds really awesome. It really is like DSMLink for cars. Can you datalog? The traction control seems like an especially nice to have. I really think every bike should have TC (perhaps easily defeatable). Now I have one more reason to wish I didn't have a slow bike with carbs, haha.
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Steve Kinnaird]
#427008
May 24, 2014 02:15 am UTC
May 24, 2014 02:15 am UTC
|
Joined: Jan 1970
Posts: 4,971
Beamsville, Ont, Canada
Steve Kinnaird
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
|
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Jan 1970
Posts: 4,971
Beamsville, Ont, Canada
|
Mark: LOL.. I hear ya. I'd say I've advanced from amateur to novice. Got a lot to learn yet. Jeff: can't really datalog. It will display the basics (rpm, tps, afr, gear, and where you are on the map) but it's really more for real-time on the dyno stuff. It won't let you save a log, and look at it later. I suppose with enough bungee cords, I could figure something out though.. . It does save actual afr readings in the map for you to go over after a ride, but that's it. Stephen: I haven't tried it, but I'm sure you could use the TC as launch control/anti-wheelie. If the front of the bike starts to lift, I would imagine the bazzaz would see this as a crank that's accelerating too quickly, and put an end to it. It MAY be coincidence, but the only time I've done a power wheelie was with the TC off.
Now, I'll have all kinds of time to talk about DSMs, because I won't be busy fixing mine!
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Terry S]
#432132
August 30, 2014 03:24 pm UTC
August 30, 2014 03:24 pm UTC
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,749
Belleville, Ontario
Ryan Laliberte
No-Lift-To-Shift.... Stock. :)
|
No-Lift-To-Shift.... Stock. :)
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,749
Belleville, Ontario
|
I laugh ever time I read about J Stacey misguided hate for ecmlink. I understand you think other tuning platforms offer the exact same easability when it comes to dialling In a Dsm (maybe more) but I think you might have been drinking the 'coolaid' with the wrong group of friends   Here here. Jay, the reason the "gods" as you call them upgrade from ECMLink is usually due to the limitations of the program and the factory ECU, not because it doesn't work for a 9 second car. Also, going with a non-proprietary ECU tuning setup creates familiarity across multiple platforms. Haltech, Megasquirt, AEM etc work on Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru etc. ECMLink only works on 1G, 2G and Evo8.
AWDAuto 1996 TSi AWD Automagic12.24 @ 113 - Small 16G FP Green HTA - 11.42/123 Team Pump Gas and Meth RTMRacing - Your Canadian source for DSM Parts "Every moment you live is pregnant with the next moment of your life" --Jim CarreyLast Login: September 28, 2021
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Steve Kinnaird]
#432193
September 01, 2014 01:13 am UTC
September 01, 2014 01:13 am UTC
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,669
Toronto, Ontario
Stephan Tanchak
Insane Member
|
Insane Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,669
Toronto, Ontario
|
Knowing the typical dsmer, they would just use the auto tune feature to adjust for boost leaks and other problems they're too clueless to fix.
1998 Eclipse GSX Spyder 11.5@124
AWD Talons: 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Team Big Turbo
PHP: 2
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Steve Kinnaird]
#432195
September 01, 2014 01:32 am UTC
September 01, 2014 01:32 am UTC
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,065
Colborne
Adam Grenon
Insane Member
|
Insane Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,065
Colborne
|
Looks like LinkTools has been pulled due to people abusing it for personal gain, until further notice.
2012 - Lancer Ralliart Octane Blue
1991 - Talon Tsi AWD FP HTA 71
1992 - Talon Tsi AWD on hold
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Steve Kinnaird]
#432202
September 01, 2014 04:10 am UTC
September 01, 2014 04:10 am UTC
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
|
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
|
Yeah unfortunately it was right when I went to use it.
He pulled all the videos too so good luck on trying to figure it out.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD
"Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD
Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Steve Kinnaird]
#432206
September 01, 2014 04:27 am UTC
September 01, 2014 04:27 am UTC
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,669
Toronto, Ontario
Stephan Tanchak
Insane Member
|
Insane Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,669
Toronto, Ontario
|
Close. I ordered a new real gasket to replace the paper one it came with and in the downtime, someone on tooners said a 2g intake manifold gasket will work on a 1g 7 bolt head, so I gave it a shot. Didn't think it would work so didn't want to wait for the compressor to fill and tried starting it.
That's also totally different from trying to dial in and tune on a leaky system.
Last edited by Stephan Tanchak; September 01, 2014 04:28 am UTC.
1998 Eclipse GSX Spyder 11.5@124
AWD Talons: 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Team Big Turbo
PHP: 2
|
|
|
Re: Why don't DSMs have autotune? (or do they?)
[Re: Steve Kinnaird]
#432223
September 01, 2014 05:43 pm UTC
September 01, 2014 05:43 pm UTC
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
|
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
|
Thanks Jason! Going to save them all.
Wow I hope we get to see v6, those three new videos he uploaded are pretty cool.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD
"Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD
Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
|
|
|
|
|
