Hey guys,

I think my starter may be getting tired as I'm only seeing about 200rpm while cranking. This is also causing the car to not start occasionally. I need some comparison numbers, what rpm are you guys seeing during cranking??

350-400rpm. 200 definitely seems low.. are you sure the starter is getting all the power that it needs?

Wow, didn't realize I was that low! Well at least I've found the problem. I've checked everything else. Alternator and battery are both good and I've voltage drop tested both cables and found a 0.08V drop in each one.

I actually had the starter bench tested at PartSource as well and it showed that it was good but I know they can behave differently under load especially if they are still working but just worn out.

What is your actual available voltage from the battery and what does it drop to while cranking?

The battery will read about 12.5V after sitting overnight, during cranking it drops to about 10.7-10.8V as I recall, I'll get a log tomorrow to confirm those numbers.

Those numbers sound good. Could just be the starter. I have been beat before by starters that bench test good but fall on their face under load.

Agreed!

I had the exact same problem and I had extremely low cranking speed. Starter bench tested fine but under load it was weak.

Worth a try!

I've seen them bench tested under load. I was at a starter shop and they apply load with a 2x4 against the gear while the starter is in a vice.

This was the method I used to confirm that my slow cranking was NOT a problem with the starter.

If the starter is out for bench testing, it's worth a shot. If it can chew through 2x4, you've got other issues.

Hey guys,

I just pulled all the relevant numbers I could from the car, all numbers were taken at the battery using a voltmeter:

After sitting overnight
Key on 12.4V
While cranking 11.1V
Cranking speed 210rpm

I then started the car and got the following numbers
Immediately after start 14.2V
Immeadiately after shut down 13.0V
After sitting for ~20min 12.6V

I then got the following on a warm engine
Key on 12.5V
While cranking 11.3V
Cranking speed 190rpm

Let me know what you think, I think it's gotta be the starter.

Certainly seems like the starter. But when you're doing these tests, you should be testing for how much power is at the starter during cranking, not just across the battery.

Understood, but since I've voltage drop tested the cables I would assume that the figure at the battery minus that drop should be what's at the starter, correct?

Correct. If the voltage drop test was done correctly. May I ask how you did it?

One lead of the voltmeter attached to the positive terminal of the starter and the other attached to the positive terminal of the battery, when cranking this read 0.08V. Then one lead attached to the bolt which holds the ground to the starter and the other lead attached to the negative terminal of the battery, this also showed 0.08V while cranking.

Sounds good. If you pull the spark plugs does it crank faster?
If so pull the starter and have it rebuilt by a good rebuilder.

I'll check the numbers with the spark plugs out but just off the top of my head I believe it does crank faster probably something around 250-300 rpm. I'll confirm that on Sunday when I have some more time to work on the car.

or if you're brave enough you can disassemble it and test it all yourself.

No thanks! It's an OEM unit so it's worth getting rebuilt professionally.

In reality it is probably only a plunger and contacts.

I tested the starter this morning and saw 180rpm with the plugs in and 210rpm with them out, I've now pulled the starter and will be taking it for a rebuild, I'll let you guys know the results.

Well, starter was rebuilt and it looks great however it hasn't improved my cranking speed at all...sigh.

After installing the rebuilt unit this morning I still saw 180rpm while cranking. I pulled the battery out of another car just to triple check that it wasn't the battery and also saw 180rpm, these were both 78DT batteries.

So if the starter and battery are both known to be good the only other option is the cables correct? I think trying a new ground cable in a larger gauge is going to be my next step, I think the current cable is 4ga.

Now I currently have the ground cable running from the bolt on the starter up to the battery and then have a grounding strap-type cable that goes from the battery to the firewall, is it a better idea to run the starter ground straight to the wall?

No leave it the way it is.

Maybe try bench testing it with a piece of wood to confirm.

I think I'm safe to assume its not the starter since it just got back from the re-builder this morning. The tech there said it didn't even look bad inside.

How does the turn by hand? If it was cables it would of should up on a Voltage drop test.... if done correctly.

The motor turns fine when turning it over with a ratchet, it also runs strong once its started, I don't think the motor itself is to blame.

Maybe I did the voltage test drop incorrectly afterall, I'm not sure. I'm going to replace the ground cable anyway as there is a bit of corrosion around the areas where the wire meets the terminal and see if that helps.

Okay guys, I'm at a complete loss and I need help.

I just made up a nice new ground cable using 2 gauge welding cable and some properly soldered lug nuts. I also picked up a new negative terminal for the battery just in case. I cleaned all the connections and I also trickled charged the battery overnight.

The results, 180rpm while cranking...

SO, I checked the voltage at the starter while cranking (i.e one multimeter lead on the positive terminal of the starter and the other on the ground bolt) and the starter is showing 10.95V while cranking.

Rebuilt starter, good battery, good cables. What am I missing? Should I be calling up the rebuild shop and getting my money back?

I also forgot to ask, does anyone have a known working starter they would be willing to let me try in the car so I can rule that out? 2G AWD Manual, thanks.

Is there known good starter you can borrow and try?

I would be willing to pull mine out and lend it to you, but not until July. I need my car daily until then.

I have a BNIB Bosch starter that you could borrow immediately. I will be in the GTA tomorrow evening.

Jeremy I just sent you a PM.

Just did some sanity checks on the car. I boosted the car using a car that was not running and that resulted in 180rpm. I then boosted the car with the other car running and saw 200rpm, so the additional ~2V that the alternator of the other car was putting out helped to increase the starter speed. This still points to the starter if i'm not mistaken.

Ok so just so I have this right.

Red lead of the meter on Batt terminal , black lead on starter batt + lug gives you a voltagedrop of 0.08v.

What happens if you go from the starter B+ lug to the other lug on the solenoid while cranking?

And then from the body of the started to battery neg post.

Yes, as you described Stephen . I should mention that I've been using an alligator clip on the positive terminal of the starter and then attaching the multimeter lead to the other end of that wire so that I can access that terminal with the battery in the car. I haven't checked for a drop across the solenoid but I can do that too, the rebuild shop said they replaced the solenoid though.

Jeremy has kindly given me access to a brand new starter to test in the car so that will be the next step early next week.

Well guys I'm at my wits end with this issue. Jeremy kindly lent me a BNIB Bosch Starter to try out in the car. I installed the starter and also decided to replace the positive cable for good measure. So with two new cables and a brand new starter I saw about 210rpm while cranking, still very slow.

I then took the car down to PartSource where they allowed me to install a brand new 960 cranking amp battery in the car. So with brand new battery, cables, and starter and all connections checked and cleaned I saw 210rpm.

I'm going to need some "outside the box" suggestions on this one. Is there any way the starter relay system could be sending a weak signal to the solenoid so that it doesn't make full contact?

I've included two videos below, the first is cranking inside the car from a few days ago with the rebuilt starter installed, the second video is from today under the hood with the brand new starter and cables. I measure the speed while cranking by pulling the ignition plug so that the engine doesn't fire, I can't pull the MPI relay because then my turbo timer doesn't give me an rpm reading.

The only other piece of information that I can think of is that when I installed a used replacement ISC motor a few weeks ago the car sounded like it was turning over faster and not labouring as much. That replacement ISC died fairly quickly though and after that it cranked like it did before. This sounds like the engine is being choked for air but if I open the throttle while cranking it does not gain any rpm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2WA25SOchQ&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVcr39rFbx8&feature=youtu.be

Does car the start? Do you have a way to measure Amperes? Have you voltage drop tested the start signal wire or relay?

The car will start on the first crank about 75% of the time when its cold and about 95% of the time when its warm. As the months go by though those numbers are slowly dropping and that is now why I've decided to address the issue. I have never had the car not actually start at all but in the worst cases it will take 7-8 cranks to get the car going and then it barely rumbles to life. I'm looking for a reliable vehicle and that just doesn't meet my requirements.

I don't have a way to measure ameperes, I would assume you mean at the starter? How can that be done?

I haven't voltage drop tested the start signal or relay, again how would that be done?

Could ask the guys at Partsource they may have a portables Battery/ Starter/Alt tester with and amp clamp. I will have to look at the wiring diagram to give you a proper answer 2g right?

Ah yes I know they do have a machine that tests battery/alternator/starter all while in the car, I'll go get that test done tomorrow.

Yep, its a 2G, '95, stock 7-Bolt.

Does that make sense?

You can even go right from the power source for the starter relay to the ground side of the starter.

So I'm basically testing the drop across pins 3 and 4 of the relay while cranking?

To test the relay yes. To test the the whole circuit you have to start at the power source and ground. Then you can divide the circuit it there is a drop.


HAVE YOU CONFIRMED THAT 210RPM IS TOO LOW FOR A 2g. Maybe someone with link can check for you.

I would try to jump the starter straight with Battery and wires and see if its any better.

My earlier quote of 350-400 rpm may have been a bit high, but when Chris came by on Tuesday to grab the starter, I fired up my car and he said the cranking was noticeably faster. He had a video of his car cranking, which I thought was noticeably slower.

Unfortunately I probably won't have time to grab a log of my car starting until the weekend.

I haven't had a confirmation from someone with link that 210rpm is indeed too low so if anyone is willing to take a log of cranking their car over with the ignition unplugged that would be very helpful. If you look at the videos posted above you can listen to the engine as it turns over, it sounds laboured.

Deep, I like your suggestion but I think it would be just about impossible to try to fit a jumper cable under the manifold to connect it to the starter, is there a trick to do this?

Stephen, I'm just a little confused on how to check the drop on the whole circuit. I would place one lead on the starter ground but where would the other lead go?

From the diagram. The ignition switch.

I'll get it done after I get home today (if no one beat me to it).

Thanks Alex, much appreciated.

I'll take a video of my startup if you want to see. But won't happen until closer to 8pm.

that'd be great Mike, even better if you can pull your ignition plug to replicate my video for comparison.

Sure. I'll do it today.

So how do I post a video?

upload to youtube and then link it here.

You make it sound easy...


Ok, I'll try that lol

Did you log your cranking rpm Mike?

Watch "'99 GSX startup" on YouTube
'99 GSX startup: http://youtu.be/df9cEF9oQys

Tell me if that works, first time ever uploading a video lol

Logging it says 210-220 rpm

Mostly 220 though. With the ignition disconnected.

Any other 2g owners seeing more then 220rpm cranking?!?!? Might be normal......

I watched and listened to your videos, sounds like lack of spark or fuel to me.

Its not a no start.... its a slow crank. It has always started.

Oh.. That explains that.

Sorry I didn't read through every message posted. Bad habit lately.

Anyway, the 220 rpm sounds normal to me.

Yay mike you got it figured, see that wasn't so hard!

Interesting, if you guys have a listen to the difference between me and Mike's videos though do you not agree his sounds quite different?

My car is one long droning sound while mike's has distinct "chugs" for lack of a better word. It's hard to describe but it just sounds like something is wrong when my car is turning over and that seems to be confirmed when it doesn't start.

I can take another video of it starting with the camera pointed at the engine bay. Gf just got home so she can help lol

Thanks for simplifying it Bryan. I'm going to start using this a lot more now

Mike, if you could get a video of the engine cranking with the ignition plugged in that would be even better, so that the car doesn't start.

Too late, the gf has no clue what I'm trying to do and I forgot to unplug the ignition..

For what it's worth, 4 seconds of turning over.
Watch "'99 GSX startup 2" on YouTube
'99 GSX startup 2: http://youtu.be/aaOAVHGL4ts

Could try it again. Let me see if I can muster the energy.

From your videos your starter sounds fine. At the end of the second vid it sounded like the cylinders were getting washed and you were getting a bit of compression loss. Which is normal if the injectors are firing but spark isnt. Can you post a video of it actually cranking and starting?

Okay I just went back into my tune because something wasn't sitting right with me. I don't actually have logs of the car starting. However, my ECU only considers my car to be "cranking" once it gets over 300RPM....

20 year, 200,000km old OEM starter on 8.5:1 compression. And there is a noticeable difference in cranking speed between my car and Chris'.

Guess I'm missing something.

Maybe his Rotating mass is heavier. But from the videos it doesnt sound that slow to me. But it is just a video and I dont have much to compare it to.

Well that was carried over from my stock rotating assembly, but no I'm just still slightly AEM retarded.

It enters cranking once it's at 50RPM (which kinda makes more sense..), and leaves it at 400. So I'll have to get a log to see exactly where it's at. But maybe I'll go get my starter in my 2g and we can start them side by side, one after the other

That's a good point, I have a Fidanza flywheel.

Finally test results came in:
My starter is new OEM with about 20k on it. New positive and negative wiring to starter. Negative is wired to started bolt. 2 year old Canadian tire battery. 96TSI awd




Test 1: Normal start



Battery dropped from 11.9v to 10.8
Average cranking speed 215-225 RPM
Engine temp 26c and started within 0.9 secs

Test 2: Continuous crank
Injectors off
Throttle position 100%


Battery dropped from 11.9v to 10.8
Average cranking speed 220-235 RPM
Engine temp 31c

Test 3: Continuous crank
Injectors off
Throttle position 0%



Battery dropped from 11.9v to 10.8
Average cranking speed 225-235 RPM
Engine temp 31c

Wow, that's intriguing work with the screen shots.

So based on your findings, my car, your car, are normal.

Thanks so much Alex, that's fantastic info.

So it appears I'm just slightly below the mark afterall, I guess I'll continue to chase these hard starting problems because it looks like my starter system is running at a reasonable speed.

I'll try jumping the starter straight from the battery today and see what kind of results I get.

Glad to help