So as some of you may know I recently picked up eagle rods.

They're the "H beam" rods.

Rated to 750 HP.

Which looks like may be my new goal.

I've been reading a lot about pistons and from what I've read, I'm leaning towards the Wiseco 1400 HD's. With a 8.5:1 compression ratio.

Wondering if anyone here is running these, or has any advice for my first forged internal build. I do plan to find a shop for balancing of the rotating assembly including flywheel and clutch. But am having a difficult time finding a known trustworthy shop local to me to help with this. And while I'm at it, hopefully they can machine my head. A different topic altogether.

Interested in what you guys think...

Thats the exact combo I run. I looked at getting "beefier" rods but the majory of them added extra weight & when researching what kind of power guys have put through those rods, I figured why add weight, which would be harder on bearings, when the Eagles will hold all I plan to ever make.

My advise for the Wiseco's is don't run them as tight as they tell you too. Believe I went .0040 PTW, which includes the .0005 thickness of their break-in coating, which should leave me @ .0045 when it wears off. Depends on your goals, but I'd probably go .0040-.0050.

For ring gaps, think I'm something like .018-.019 1st & .021-.022 2nd

I have that Combo in my car. If it would be to do it again I'd try 9.0:1. Otherwise I would not change a thing.

Ghislain

Darren - good to hear you're enjoying that combo. I honestly had no idea anyone here was using it. As for the piston to wall clearance, everything I've read suggest the 85.5mm (.020).

Why go bigger?

What are the advantages?

Ghislain - I had always thought the higher CR gives you a more torquey low end, but limits your max psi from a turbo. What turbo do you use?

Now have a Red. I do not think that .5 or a CR would do much difference. Meth fixes everything.

Ghislain

It also makes more power up top with less boost. When I build a bottom, it will be a 10.0 or slightly higher.

Meth, race fuel, leaded gas... The options are endless.

I've heard boring over 0.020 isn't good.

I've read that too much play in the cylinder results in piston slap. But essentially leaves you more room for error in the upper rpms.

I'm looking for a streetable monster. 10:1 sounds just nuts.

750hp is your new goal? That's the least of your worries. Making the rest of the car take it is the hard part!


You want strength? Then Arais pistons on Pauter x beams. Comes at a cost though, Weight

Want less weight? Then JE and Carrillo A beams.

Can't afford those combos? Then Wiesco Hd's on some sort of H-beam rod.

11:1+ is nuts. 10:1 looks to be streetable. Apparently Marco swears by higher compression pistons. Just gotta tune it well and use some good gas. Or 94 with lots of meth.

And also what Corte said. I believe it's at like 600whp that after that things become super expensive as you need to upgrade your fuel system, drive train, plus things just break a lot quicker at higher power levels.

Plus, with larger clearances, including bearings, there's a lot more wear on cold start. At those power levels, it won't make sense to drive the car on anything other than a Sunday to and back from the track.

This is a project for a whole other long block. By no means is my stock transmission going to see those power levels.

Stay on topic though please.

Arias pistons were the first I had looked at, and didn't see them any more expensive than the Wiseco's. In fact, I think they're less expensive. Either way, money isn't a concern here. I'm trying to educate myself with the clubs help and this topic is hardly ever discussed.

On another note does rainbow engines in Markham have a website? Can't find it.

I'm not adverse to a more responsive low end power band that results in a quicker spool. I hit full boost by nearly 4k.

The whole setup is more expensive. X beams are nearly double the price of an H beam.

As for CR's I think a 9.0:1 piston is Ideal for street use. Could always go higher and run less boost.

Or you could get Extreme tuners to build you a motor and run a 18.8:1 CR that runs on pixie dust making 800 whp on 6 psi, Seems legit...

No they do not. You have to call.

Somewhat old school, but they're too busy putting awesome engines together to bother with all that interwebs nonsense.

Well I'm willing to bring the short block to a reputable engine builder in the GTA. But before doing so, I'd like to tear it down and post pics of it here, record measurements of the bore, and ultimately get the clubs feedback prior to making that trip.

Gord Bush could be another option.

Anyone who has any experience with an engine builder, I'd like to know ball park costs. Rate their level of quality and attention to detail.

I may even do this in the coming weeks. So any input is greatly appreciated!

I will be going to Gord Bush when I build my block (who knows when that will be).
He has plenty of great reviews from the Subaru guys and plenty of great reviews from the honda kids.
I was reading about a subaru that one of the lobes on his cams flattened and he busted a few valves and gord stood by his work and took the whole block apart to make sure the bottom end was good.
I know rainbow is good but from what I hear they can be a little disorganized.

My good buddy had his subie engine built at gord bush, he put a twin plate clutch in without a stopper, as a result he blew the engine at CSCS in Cayuga last season but since he had the car tuned at netronics (per gord bush instructions) gord bush honered his warranty and fixed the engine at little cost.

Dispite my personal issues with Rainbow I would use them again, I would also use gord bush... Just my $.02

I had my engine built at Rainbow.

Head:
-Full refurbishing including machining the deck
-Lapped the valves in for me and put in new springs

Block:
-Inspected old rotating assembly, including turning the crank (unfortunately just to find heat cracks)
-Bored .020"
-Machined the deck
-Installed a main girdle and line honed
-Assembled the short block
-Modified the stock oil squirters to work with forged pistons

Total Cost: Under $1000.

Pros:
-Meticulous attention to detail. Every single thread that seemed even slightly worn was drilled and helicoiled. The block and head were cleaned and painted before they were returned.
-Very good communication. Every time they found an issue they would get in touch with good advice for next steps. Paul knows these engines and is able to be a very constructive source of information.

Cons:
-At the time, my Talon was my only car. Thus, I had to transport my engine and any parts I got for it to and from Markham with some difficulty.

I would suggest doing your research on dealing with machine shops in general. ALL machine shops have some level of disorganization; it gets far worse in the busy seasons. I took everything apart, kept it in separate, labelled bags that I put in a small box for him. They did not lose a single nut, washer, bolt, ANYTHING that I took them.

If you'd rather spend your money paying for a machine shop's new state-of-the-art filing system, that is your prerogative. I had a badass engine built for $1000 by a very knowledgeable, reputable builder who was more than happy to continue to field my calls and answer my questions months after I picked up my engine.

When I shredded my timing belt (fully my fault), I called Paul. He said "Bring me a head in the morning. I'll have it ready for the afternoon". He is a big reason why I was back on the road in a few days.

As far as how they handle problem cases - no idea. I've never had a problem.

Since you typed .020, I'll assume your talking about the pistons being .020 larger then stock? This is the piston size, not the PTW (piston to wall) clearance. Yes, typically get a .020 over piston, this allows them to bore the cylinder to the proper PTW clearance. That is, unless your cylinder bores are bad & require an even larger oversized piston.

At one time Wiseco use to spec something like .0020 PTW for our applications, way too tight. Under the boost/power you plan to make, pistons will be eating cylinder. Think they recommended something like .0030 or .0035 for big power back when I had my engine built. Still too tight from everyone I spoke to. Piston slap is more so to do with piston design (yes, with excessivly big PTW you can get slap as well), but .0040-.0050, is not considered excessive & should be quiet, even on startup. Believe one guy was running .0060 & still quiet on startup.

I had my work done by Gord as well.

Why not wait until winter and then build your engine? We are half way through the season. Enjoy your DSM as is unless you have major engine problems. my 0.02 cents

He's building an extra one on the side. So he can start whenever

I've seen guys blow up motors from Rainbow, Gord, Magnus, and other builders. Guys who don't know sh!t about tuning, spin rod bearings and blow headgaskets, and then go blame the builder.

No engine is bullet proof, period. Just becasue one machine shops puts it together, it doesn't make it anything special. These 4g63 engines are very simple to work with for ANY machine shop.

I just get the machine work done and do all the assembly myself. Every nut, bolt and gasket is assmebled and turned by me.

Personally, I have been using Paul at Rainbow for almost 10 years and not once have I ever had to go back to him. I trust his machine work 100%. I have seen guys blow up their motors within days of getting it back from him, due to their own stupidity, and he still tries to help them out.

The worst is when a dumb nut who knows jack all is quick to blame the machine shop for his engine failure!

Bingo.

Mike, Innotech in Repentigny(only 2 hours from you) would be another good place to go to for machine work. They know their stuff and are very helpful.

There's also Serge Turcotte if you're not on a tight timeline.

You can go to the guy in Belleville (Rob) that built all the engines for the Quinte area guys. Ask them for more details. There's also Beatty & Woods in Mississauga that I've heard good things about (albeit from guys that had muscle car engines built).

That's good to hear that about standing behind his work. I'm still curious to know how much Gord would charge for the assembly of the entire long block. From what I've seen, anywhere between $1000 - $1500.

The more I think about it, figure is a lot better to the whole long block in one shot, from one builder.

Was it just the short block, or did he also assemble your head?

And yes, you're right. I was referring to piston size. Which is why I mentioned I'd like to tear down the motor I have, document my findings and report back to the board to confirm the correct parts needed.

This is great info Darren! Much appreciated!



Exactly. I have a spare motor to play with. And I'm getting the itch to pull up my sleeves and get dirty.



I know you're technical knowledge gives you a huge advantage with your projects. Which is why I appreciate anytime you chime in to one of my posts, even if I'm asking a stupid question. And the whole point of this, me learning about the internals of a 4G63, is so that I don't become one of negligent morons you speak of.

I would find it thrilling and a challenge to create a fully comprehensive thread, with your help and others who are interested, doing a rebuild from top to bottom here on this website. But I'll likely run into a snag, and explaining things online can be a PITA. But who knows, I'll get things started and we'll see how things go from there..



Thanks Jason! I'll look into this!

Although I will admit, I've never heard of them. But that could just be because I'm new at this.



Thank you Salomon! I also appreciate any recommendations. Although I just feel more comfortable, giving my project to a known DSM engine builder. Even if the concepts are similar or exactly the same.

I will post pictures of the tear down.



Thank you all for your responses!

I'm sure you'll know who Serge is when you see his car

Mike if you want to get your hands dirty and learn stuff I would do what jeremy did, that's the option I will be taking.
That way the machine shop will be doing all the precise work and you can assemble the easy stuff.
Also I wouldn't bother documenting, Jafro has done an amazing job and documenting all his builds and video does a far better job than writing and is far more efficient too.

I will however send you a spreadsheet I have that give you what internal components are recommended for each power goal.

Oh yeah. Wow! That's awesome, but far from what I hope to accomplish.

I'm documenting my findings for my own knowledge. It's not about creating a video to post online and give people a how to. I don't have the skill set that Jafro has to even make a video, let alone a build

But I am definitely interested in that spread sheet. Could email it to me?

And yes, I'd like to take this project as far as I can before turning it over to a professional. For two reasons..

I want to learn.

And I want to save money.

There's really nothing remotely difficult about tearing down a 4G63. Putting one back together requires a little more finesse, but there's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be handing your machinist a bare head and block. It will save you a good chunk of cash, and is a great learning experience.

I have it on dropbox mike I will send it to you when I get home.

I would also suggest you look at doing the casting cleanup that jafro has done.s

That's comforting to hear!

So when I say document my findings. I'd like to measure the bore of each cylinder.

Get ready for a stupid question.

Does a micrometer like this;



Or a caliper like this;



Work better for measuring?

Do I require both?

I'd like to start collecting the tools needed for as much as I'm comfortable doing with the reassembly, if I get that far.

I saw that video. It's insane amount of work. What was the name of that product he used after?

Glyptol, I wouldn't suggest you do that, I think that's overkill big time! Plus if you goof you may be screwed.

Agreed 110% lol

Found this.



Do you guys recommend digital or mechanical gauge?

I like my digital ones as they are more accurate.

As you found out, you'll want a bore gauge for measuring cylinders.

It depends on the quality of the instrument, digital isn't necessarly more accurate.

I believe my base price from Gord was $1800 to start with, but my bill ended up being a good amount higher as I had him do a buch of extra work. Such as had the crank magnafluxed & nitrided. I also had them pull all the soft plugs in the crank so you could properly clean all the oil galleys. Gord mentioned he was surprised how dirty the galleys were. Then tap for threaded plugs. He cleaned up some of the casting flash for the galleys on the block as well as completely removing all casting flash from the head (he spent a couple hours just on the head, probably should have just done it myself to save some $). I also had the block o-ringed.

He did some minor head work as well, decked it, installed all new bronze guides (oversized so he could machine for proper fit). Checked all specs to verify in tolerance, checked & shimmed Kiggly beehives for correct install height, installed new valve stem seals.

Wrong. an analog gauge will always be more accurate.

Mike just go buy a pair of princess auto calipers. Its all you need for basic measurement.

I suggest asking the shop. "hey, do you mind running through the numbers i asked you to machine the block to before i finish paying you" They'll pull out there dial bore gauge, there expensive micrometer and you'll see first hand you got what you paid for.

Incorrect as well It all depends on the specific model in question.

And the vision of the user