Re: LSD for gst
[Re: Jonathan Paquin]
#436789
January 09, 2015 04:58 pm UTC
January 09, 2015 04:58 pm UTC
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398 Ajax, ON
Reza Mirza
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398
Ajax, ON
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I installed one of these RTM LSD units in a customers transmission last year. Fit was perfect and looks like it will work well, however these are hit and miss from the research I have done. Since there is no thrust bearing between the LSD unit and the spider gears, over time wear can cause pieces of metal to break off and damage the transmission.
Though I have personally never seen one of these LSD units damage a transmission, I would consider a proper LSD like a Quaife, unless you are on a poor man's budget.
Will the RTM unit work as intended: yes it will.
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Re: LSD for gst
[Re: Jonathan Paquin]
#436818
January 10, 2015 07:15 pm UTC
January 10, 2015 07:15 pm UTC
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,196 Newmarket, Ontario
Daren Peacock
Insane Member
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Insane Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,196
Newmarket, Ontario
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Like most things, you get what you pay for. Do you really expect a $225 insert to work the same as a $1000+ true LSD? Sure the insert will probably help but it won't perform like the real thing. I would think just installing an insert would still leave the stock diff prone to explode with wheel hop? (real LSD like the Quife should prevent this).
My thoughts are, if you plan to make 500+whp, why are you looking at such a cheap solution for the item that puts the power down?
My car was fwd, I ran a Quaife. Last time I had it dyno'd in street trim it made 410whp/352ft/lbs. Having first hand experience with a 400whp+ fwd, my advise would be skip the LSD & swap to awd. The car is so much better in awd form & from experience I would never build a high hp fwd again.
98 Eclipse GSX DSM82HTA
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Re: LSD for gst
[Re: Jonathan Paquin]
#436821
January 10, 2015 07:27 pm UTC
January 10, 2015 07:27 pm UTC
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,669 Toronto, Ontario
Stephan Tanchak
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Posts: 2,669
Toronto, Ontario
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What about welding the front diff? Has anyone here tried that? (assuming the car was more a weekend warior/track car)
Apart from "Dont do it, its bad", does anyone have any real world experience? If his car is gonna be a weekend/track car at that power level, might be worth just welding it until he does an AWD swap.
1998 Eclipse GSX Spyder 11.5@124 AWD Talons: 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Team Big Turbo
PHP: 2
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Re: LSD for gst
[Re: Jonathan Paquin]
#436822
January 10, 2015 07:27 pm UTC
January 10, 2015 07:27 pm UTC
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 115 Toronto, Canada
Jonathan Paquin
OP
Regular Member
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OP
Regular Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 115
Toronto, Canada
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i didnt expect it to work the same, im just trying to weight out my options and see what others have experienced with the products.
ive also been thinking about the awd option,but ive enjoyed my car more from roll racing and 1/2 mile applications than 1/4 mile from a dig; hence the lsd option.
thx for sharing from your experience though =) i appreciate it.
~Get Tuned, Stay Tuned~
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Re: LSD for gst
[Re: Jonathan Paquin]
#436898
January 13, 2015 04:33 am UTC
January 13, 2015 04:33 am UTC
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,196 Newmarket, Ontario
Daren Peacock
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Insane Member
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Posts: 3,196
Newmarket, Ontario
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i didnt expect it to work the same, im just trying to weight out my options and see what others have experienced with the products.
ive also been thinking about the awd option,but ive enjoyed my car more from roll racing and 1/2 mile applications than 1/4 mile from a dig; hence the lsd option.
thx for sharing from your experience though =) i appreciate it. Actually, I would still give the same advise for your application as well. My car was never set up as a drag car & I actually use to drag race it more when it was a fwd. I've had the awd swap done for 7 years or so & have only been drag racing twice since. If I go to the track now, its to turn corners. My cars mainly a summer daily with some lapping use & for this, I would recommend the swap over an LSD any day. Even daily driving a high hp awd is so much more enjoyable then fwd.
98 Eclipse GSX DSM82HTA
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Re: LSD for gst
[Re: Jonathan Paquin]
#436911
January 13, 2015 07:39 pm UTC
January 13, 2015 07:39 pm UTC
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398 Ajax, ON
Reza Mirza
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398
Ajax, ON
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Sorry Mike, should have mentioned I have an older style stronger Cusco center LSD made back in the days. It does not look like your regular Cusco tarmac and I doubt you'll ever find the same one I am using. It is 4 spider, it is not open, and has clutch pack LSD in it. I get instant power to the rear wheels and do not fry the front wheels like the open center. Car over steers well too. On my car this diff has made a night and day difference and helps with traction tremendously! My car handles more evo like with this diff. I wasn't aware the Cusco were no longer made so I guess your only option is the Quaife, which as you mentioned can pretty much take out your intermediate shaft. Either way if I was to choose between a front LSD or a center, I'd go with a center. Like I said I just got rid of my Mitsu clutch pack front LSD as I feel it was no longer needed. With just a front LSD all you are going to do it fry both the front wheels if your making serious power. I'd rather a shift of power to the rear than just a front LSD and open center. Obviously I am more setup for drag, so I would only really need the front LSD if I were flying around corners which I don't do on the street or drag strip. So IMO, if you plan on lapping like the 2% of members here, get a front LSD. If your car is more of a street and drag setup, get a center LSD. If your rich and have deep pockets, get all the LSD's. If your feel that your DSM is cheap enough to just get an LSD insert, go for it Last thing I want to do is recommend an $1800 diff for someone with a DSM worth only $800
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Re: LSD for gst
[Re: Jonathan Paquin]
#436912
January 13, 2015 07:44 pm UTC
January 13, 2015 07:44 pm UTC
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398 Ajax, ON
Reza Mirza
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398
Ajax, ON
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Also would be nice to hear from someone who actually has a front and center LSD, and real world experience driving with these in a DSM. I mean Mike your opinions are great and everything on paper, but they just don't count yet as you have not been able to get a DSM running in the last decade Scott?
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Re: LSD for gst
[Re: Jonathan Paquin]
#436914
January 13, 2015 08:36 pm UTC
January 13, 2015 08:36 pm UTC
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398 Ajax, ON
Reza Mirza
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398
Ajax, ON
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Still does not explain all the Quaife failures that people have had over the years. I'd rather run a regular 4 spider than take chances on destroying my trans.
A quick google search and I found this quote from TRE:
"Hello everyone -
This is Jon Ripple of T.R.E.
I rarely make posts here but I'd like to clarify some things.
Last winter we noticed that people were breaking their Quaife center diffs. We found that the backlash between the center diff and intermediate shaft is a little excessive. This will cause gear tooth breakage if and when the gears are heavily loaded. I've contacted Quaife USA and UK and explained to them why their diff is breaking. The backlash issue is the major problem followed by the heat treating. I discussed this problem with Mike W @ RRE and he talked Quaife USA into sending some DSM parts back to Quaife UK so they could see if anything wasn't to spec. After a while Quaife stated that yes there is some backlash but they have to leave it because they do not final grind the tooth profile after heat treating, leaving any distortion from the heat treating process. To allow for this distortion Quaife has elected to ride close to the acceptable limits for backlash. This will cause variances and the end result is some gear noise. Some of you may notice that after you've installed a Quaife you will here some gear whine, especially in 3rd gear - no load. This is the backlash issue.
What is my conclusion? If you launch your Mitsubishi AWD hard enough the Quaife center diff will eventually loose some teeth. Sorry guys but the teeth on your stock center diff are stronger. I've been in a lot of DSM gearboxes and rarely do I see busted teeth on the factory center diff gear. Pruven Performance has cut several mean 1.32sec 60' times with the transmission that I built for them without any breakage. That is a full season without any breakage. That trans has the factory center diff with the spool that we sell.
The size of the planetary gearset inside the Quaife center diff is a little small for the power that a built 4G6x can belt out. The thrust/friction surface of the sun takes a fierce beating. Quaife could remedy this by reducing the combined thrust/friction surface area of the planets, allowing them to wear evenly with the sun's thrust/friction area. This will also provide the Quaife with improved Auto-Torque-Biasing.
I do not feel that I'm dogging Quaife. Overall they built the best limited slip differentials. I like the ATB (Auto-Torque-Biasing) action of the Quaife because it will send equal power to the front and rear diff when you launch hard. However I prefer the 4 spider center diff from Speed Design that we sell. It is well built and holds up the best for the money. If the car only spends time at the strip then the Spool will work the best in this application. More info on transmission upgrades can be found here, http://www.teamrip.com/awd.html"
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Re: LSD for gst
[Re: Mike Degli Angeli]
#436916
January 13, 2015 09:32 pm UTC
January 13, 2015 09:32 pm UTC
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398 Ajax, ON
Reza Mirza
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398
Ajax, ON
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Not sure if the REM process would help with the excessive backlash, but it should definitely toughen up the teeth some. Did he REM treat the intermediate shaft as well?
Since you won't be launching the car much, hopefully it'll hold up!
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Re: LSD for gst
[Re: Jonathan Paquin]
#436921
January 14, 2015 03:25 am UTC
January 14, 2015 03:25 am UTC
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,241 Stratford/London
Mike Kuttschrutter
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Posts: 2,241
Stratford/London
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That's a good read posted by John, thanks Reza.
I installed a quaife centre this pass season. And got that whine. I thought I shimmed something improperly, but that kind of makes me feel better knowing it is normal. Not good, but normal.
I threw my car together with an Evo geatset, stock clutch and turbo, and there was no way the tires were breaking loose on a launch. In fact I couldn't even launch the car. The clutch would burn before I would loose traction off the line.
However this was also my first year turning corners with my car and on the 180 turn at the Shootout my one front tire would always light up when accelerating out of the corner. Super annoying. Especially in a car barely making 300hp at the time and 245 tires all the way around.
We will see what this year brings. but I would love a front lsd in there...
I plan on tearing down the Trans to check things out, I'll report back if the quaife took a dump.
Stock.
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Re: LSD for gst
[Re: Corte Beech]
#436924
January 14, 2015 04:06 am UTC
January 14, 2015 04:06 am UTC
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,152 Pickering
Mike Degli Angeli
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Posts: 2,152
Pickering
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Mike why hold out on putting the diffs in? Your going to hate the car on stock diffs. Doesn't take long to at least put in the Evo rear.
And make the car handle like a FWD? That's the stupidest sh!t I've heard from you. No one wants a car to handle like a FWD not even guys who track FWD's.... Guess i should have wrote, Setup like a front wheel drive not handle like a FWD. Its odd thinking i know and its hard to grasp. Were all putting diffs in to lock the rear along with big bars to get the back end to break loose while his saying keep the back end gripped and and add more grip to the front and steer with power. Power on oversteer scares me!
Never fear a challenge, Amateurs built the Ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
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Re: LSD for gst
[Re: Jonathan Paquin]
#436959
January 15, 2015 01:39 pm UTC
January 15, 2015 01:39 pm UTC
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,055 Stanstead, Quebec
Jason Drew
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Posts: 3,055
Stanstead, Quebec
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I've driven a good friends fairly powerful GST(built motor, FP Red, 30psi on pump gas) with a TRE build trans with a Wavetrac LSD, it was quite different from my days as a fwd. Car pulled nice and straight, didn't notice any torque steer really.
He went with the Wavetrac as I believe it was TRE that told him he wouldn't break it where as they wouldn't guarantee his trans work with a Quaife in it.
He's been abusing his car for the last 3-4 years with this LSD and hasn't had a single issue with it. I'd definitely check it out.
1997 Eclipse GST - AWD swapped - TPC - GT Spec powered 2023 - 9.63 - 145mph
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