Re: Fuel Pump Hissing?
[Re: Chris Browning]
#439264
April 19, 2015 06:52 pm UTC
April 19, 2015 06:52 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
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Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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You sure your tank is sealed? If you open your gas door after driving for a while you should hear a hiss and feel it sucking in air.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing?
[Re: Chris Browning]
#439327
April 21, 2015 11:02 pm UTC
April 21, 2015 11:02 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 608 Toronto, ON
Chris Browning
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The whirring is still there but I guess that doesn't mean anything, I popped the seat and cover off and took a video for you guys while the car is idling. You can hear the speed of the pump drop a few times during the video, this corresponds to a small drop in engine rpm, is this normal? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApiVDtBH7lI&feature=youtu.beI should also mention the pump has no problem supporting my PTE 880 injectors at 80%+ duty cycle, the car is just very hard to start when cold and the idle is a little rough, I've always attributed that to my HKS 272 cams though.
Last edited by Chris Browning; April 21, 2015 11:04 pm UTC.
1995 Talon TSi AWD Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing?
[Re: Chris Browning]
#439333
April 22, 2015 12:46 am UTC
April 22, 2015 12:46 am UTC
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,669 Toronto, Ontario
Stephan Tanchak
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How soon after you shut the pump off does the fuel pressure drop?
If its the o-ring, then the pressure will fall very quickly.
1998 Eclipse GSX Spyder 11.5@124 AWD Talons: 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Team Big Turbo
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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing?
[Re: Chris Browning]
#439388
April 23, 2015 11:19 am UTC
April 23, 2015 11:19 am UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
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I don't have cold start issues and my fuel pressure drops faster than a lead balloon. How many cranks does it take Chris?
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing?
[Re: Chris Browning]
#439392
April 23, 2015 02:04 pm UTC
April 23, 2015 02:04 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,950 Guelph, Ontario
Jeremy Gilbert
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I've read that it's pretty common to experience a fast bleed down with aftermarket AFPRs which is why I never replaced it, is that not true? Unfortunately, it's also common to experience a fast bleed down when the AFPR is kaput. It should be easy enough to open it up and check the diaphragm. If it's fine, then while you're in there, you may want to lap the check ball into its seat a bit; this should help retain pressure.
1995 TSi AWD 11.7@119 1.8 60' - Curse of the Bad Driver PHP: 0
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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing?
[Re: Chris Browning]
#439393
April 23, 2015 02:12 pm UTC
April 23, 2015 02:12 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 608 Toronto, ON
Chris Browning
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Well, it varies a lot, I'll try to explain in detail.
Sometimes (5% of the time) the car will start on the first crank, sometimes it can take cranking for 10 seconds at a time 10-12 times over the course of 15 minutes before it will start.
The only pattern that I've been able to consistently find is that the problems gets worse as the outside temperature goes up, my coolant temp sensor reads accurately in link. I've tried increasing my cranking fuel adj in link to combat this but I've increased this value in 10% increments up to an extra 100% fuel while cranking with no noticeable change.
The interesting thing is that the car will always start eventually, it has never left me stranded and often times after cranking 10 or 12 times I'll turn the key and it will catch instantly and fire right up, there seems to be no pattern as to when this will happen.
When it doesn't start I can often hear it attempting to catch on the first try. With my starter turning at about 200rpm I will see readings as high as 400rpm while logging meaning that the engine is firing but will not produce enough power to start itself. Sometimes however it wont try to catch at all on the first try and just turns over around 200rpm
If the car doesn't start my wideband will read from about 12:1 - 14:1, these readings didn't really change when I increased my cranking fuel adj by up to 100%. I would expect to see richer AFR's which indicates to me that the injectors are just not receiving enough fuel while cranking to start the engine, even with a bigger pulsewdith.
A new test that I've been performing is to put a 10A charger on the battery for about 15 minutes to generate a high surface charge in the 13V range, I haven't tried it enough times to confirm that this works every time but it seems that the extra juice will help the car start on the first try. My battery is moderately healthy and will hold 12.5-12.6V overnight, it has also been tested with an ammeter at 625CCA, it was originally rated for 700CCA. Now I realize that a new battery may help the situation but I don't think that's the underlying cause of the problem here. I've also considered an AGM battery which will put out about 12.8-13V to supply all systems with a bit of extra power.
I tried to decrease my plug gap from 0.28 to 0.24 this weekend in case my ignition system was weak thinking that the smaller gap would help to produce a stronger spark but this had no effect.
The car will start first time once its hot, an interesting symptom is that it revs to about 2500rpm when started hot which seems quite high, I'm not sure if this is related.
A list of things I've checked / done to try to fix this issue: - Rebuilt starter - New power and grounds cables to starter (0 gauge welding cable) - Additional ground from manifold and alt to chassis (4 gauge) - New black body ISC - Swapped MAF - Triple checked for vacuum and boost leaks - New PCV valve and hose to manifold - Checked coolant temperature sensor - Tested coils for resistance - Tested and swapped two power transistors for resistance - Tested injector resistor pack - Tested injector resistance - Opened AFPR and inspected diaphragm - Pinched return line as stated above, pressure holds, no leaking injectors - Fresh caps when ECU was socketed two seasons ago - Installed new exhaust (not really relevant) - Increased 10V deadtime value in link to add fuel while cranking.
One question that comes to mind is could I be flooding the engine? I've pulled the plugs after cranking 3 or 4 times and they typically have fuel around the outer ring of the plug but not on the electrode itself, also I would think I'd see a big puff of black smoke and really rich afrs after it finally catches and I'm not seeing that so I kind of ruled it out.
So there ya go, there's more info floating around in my head and I'll continue to post whatever relevant details I can think of. If you guys can help me fix this car without dumping a ton of money into parts I would be really grateful. I'm fine with going out and dropping a couple hundred bucks on a part if we can confidently agree that its going to fix the problem I just don't want to throw money at it and hope for the best.
1995 Talon TSi AWD Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing?
[Re: Chris Browning]
#439424
April 23, 2015 07:38 pm UTC
April 23, 2015 07:38 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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That's correct, you would lose pressure if the o ring was no good when pinching the return.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing?
[Re: Chris Browning]
#439426
April 23, 2015 08:01 pm UTC
April 23, 2015 08:01 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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I don't recall how priming works on 2g but you can try turning the fuel pump on as soon as key as at on. That way you know it's not a fuel issue.
Can you try loggin the CTS and wiggle the wires. Mine read fine most of the time in link but was really hard start because of sh!t wires.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing?
[Re: Chris Browning]
#439471
April 27, 2015 01:33 am UTC
April 27, 2015 01:33 am UTC
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 608 Toronto, ON
Chris Browning
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So I did so more testing of the car this weekend and I think I've found the problem. While I was checking for spark (which was strong) I left the injector fuse in to confirm that all four injectors were delivering fuel while cranking. In cylinders 2 and 4 I could see a layer of moisture forming on the top of the piston after 7 or 8 seconds of cranking which looked like a normal spray but on cylinders 1 and 3 the fuel was running down the face of the piston in more of a thin stream. I've included some pictures below but they don't really do it justice, the streams of fuel were very obvious. So it looks like I have two really clogged injectors which are delivering more of a drip of fuel than a spray. This explains my symptoms because the car is basically trying to start on two cylinders and it also explains why the car revs so high on hot starts because that pool of fuel is being burned off as soon as it catches causing the revs to climb. So my options are to either have the injectors cleaned and flow tested at Eurodrive in Burlington or to order a whole new set. They check out for resistance so I assume that getting them cleaned is going to be just as effective as getting a new set unless there's something I don't know that you guys can fill me in on, let me know. Cylinder 1 Cylinder 2 Cylinder 3 Cylinder 4
Last edited by Chris Browning; April 27, 2015 01:34 am UTC.
1995 Talon TSi AWD Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing?
[Re: Chris Browning]
#439848
May 11, 2015 10:57 pm UTC
May 11, 2015 10:57 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
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Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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I would be opening up the filter and taking a look to see what's stuck in it. Could be you need to clean out your tank. Also why did you go OEM again? Not sure if you will run into issue but if you stick it to 75+ it could also be the banjo fitting and not the fuel pump
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing?
[Re: Chris Browning]
#439849
May 11, 2015 11:08 pm UTC
May 11, 2015 11:08 pm UTC
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,669 Toronto, Ontario
Stephan Tanchak
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If he is just on that 16g, the banjo fitting is not a restriction. I ran my hx35 to 32PSI with all OEM lines and fuel filter, including the banjo line and it never ran lean.
1998 Eclipse GSX Spyder 11.5@124 AWD Talons: 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Team Big Turbo
PHP: 2
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