Re: DSM & 3SI
[Re: Mike Kuttschrutter]
#452715
March 17, 2017 02:36 am UTC
March 17, 2017 02:36 am UTC
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,241 Stratford/London
Mike Kuttschrutter
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Rear Subframe Measurements & SimilaritiesDifferences: -Over all the track width is about 4 inches wider -rear wheel power steering rack and linkage -rear diff mounts differently -subframe mounts to car are different distances. Similarities(sadly my 3si rear subframe did not come with axles or a diff): -The trailing arm looks to have an almost identical shape -The axle cups also mount at the trailing arm and are also 4 bolt -Upper and lower trailing arms look similar (Sorry about the inter web photos) DSM Rear Subframe 3000gt Rear Subframe So I began to look closer at things. Trailing arms have some slight differences, internal ebrake, wider, shock mount is lower and thicker. Other that they are very similar. Axle cups are both 4 bolt and look to be the same distance from the trailing arm, but the bolt spacing is noticeably larger and it is mounted with a larger nut. Upper and lower control arms look to be almost identical, with same lengths, however larger mounting hardware on both ends. I will elaborate on all of these later. -- Next looking at the track width, many people on the internet suggest that these are 2 completely different cars and always note the track width difference of about 4". So me being a curious cat, I set out to see where the width came from. After measuring the upper and lower control arm mounting points, they came out the same as the DSM! Looks like mitsu engineers kept the same suspension geometry between the two cars. Next I measured between the mounting points on the subframe(where the diff sits.) I could only measure the lower mounts, but the distance between them came out 2" wider than the DSMs. So we found where 2" came from, now to find the remaining 2" I went to the trailing arms. The arms look different, but after closer inspection, the mounting points were all very close. The width of the trailing arm where the hub goes in, looked to be almost 1" 1/8 wider than the DSM. So on each arm it looks like we gain about 1" track width per side.
Last edited by Mike Kuttschrutter; March 17, 2017 02:58 am UTC.
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Re: DSM & 3SI
[Re: Mike Kuttschrutter]
#452716
March 17, 2017 02:56 am UTC
March 17, 2017 02:56 am UTC
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,241 Stratford/London
Mike Kuttschrutter
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Rear Axle Cups and HubsCups Differences: -one is noticeably larger than the other, -the bolt spacing is different, -and a larger nut is used to secure the cup to the hub shaft. Similarities: -The "height" of the cups are the same -The spline count and shaft are identical. -This meaning, the cups are interchangeable with the correct mounting hardware. Onto the Hub/shaft: Differences: -3SI one is longer(to make up the extra hub width) -The threaded end is larger on the 3si (hence the larger nut) Similarities: -Everything else.
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Re: DSM & 3SI
[Re: Mike Kuttschrutter]
#452723
March 18, 2017 02:31 am UTC
March 18, 2017 02:31 am UTC
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,873 Los Angeles, California
Alex Akachinskiy
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Thanks for the write up, I heard Jason D is making his own rear tubular rear SF which is stronger than OEM. Personally, with all the stress i get from daily life, i don't think i have any time left to play around with different parts that may fit DSM. I give you credit for doing it. Currently my setup i pure bolt on with OEM/EVO stuff. I enjoy keeping it simple and straightforward, my 2 cents.
1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD 1999 Eclipse GST Automagic 1991 3000GT VR-4
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Re: DSM & 3SI
[Re: Mike Kuttschrutter]
#452729
March 19, 2017 01:19 am UTC
March 19, 2017 01:19 am UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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This is very interesting! Would you run the same wheels in the rear? Would you then have to have up the rear fenders to get your wheels to fit and function?
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: DSM & 3SI
[Re: Mike Kuttschrutter]
#452731
March 19, 2017 05:07 pm UTC
March 19, 2017 05:07 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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That would be great, I assume it's easier to find those bearings?
Sorry for my suspension geometry ignorance but what's the advantage of increasing track width if your tires will have the same contact spot relative to the car?
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: DSM & 3SI
[Re: Mike Kuttschrutter]
#452735
March 20, 2017 03:17 am UTC
March 20, 2017 03:17 am UTC
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,241 Stratford/London
Mike Kuttschrutter
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Rear Trailing armHere is the meat and potatoes to this whole adventure. I plan on using the 3si rear trailing arm so I can: -Retain an ebrake -Run Larger vented rotors -Bolt up 3si, or evo 8 calipers WITHOUT brackets. (I don't believe there is any rear brake upgrade for our cars that will allow you to retain the e-brake) Differences: -Shock mount distance from centre is longer. This will actually lower the car. -Shock mount is thicker. BUT in my one picture you can see that mitsu just welded a piece of metal dowel overtop of another dowel. I am hoping to cut the dowel off and the mount underneath will be the same size as the dsm one! TBD -Width, you can clearly see an inch, if not more difference in width. -Internal e-brake obviously. E-brake cable capability TBD. -Balljoints. Now there are a couple ways to make this work. It seems ALL the fastening hardware is larger on the 3si stuff. subframe mounting bolts, and balljoints. I could have either: -used the 3si control arms, and had a sleeve pressed into the subframe mounting side for the smaller DSM bolt. -Used the 3si control arms, drill out the dsm subframe for a larger bolt that the 3si uses. -Press out the 3si balljoint, and press it into the DSM lower arm. I chose the last option. ***But NOTE*** through my searching there is no oem balljoint available for the 3si. You need to purchase the arm. ($300) OR use a joint from an 80's dodge D50 and use ring shims to make up the larger gap for the snap ring groove. (not a huge deal) Luckily with my adjustable camber arms the upper balljoint shank flares out enough to work with the upper trailing arm mounting point.
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Re: DSM & 3SI
[Re: Mike Kuttschrutter]
#452750
March 22, 2017 04:55 pm UTC
March 22, 2017 04:55 pm UTC
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,241 Stratford/London
Mike Kuttschrutter
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Lower Control ArmsDifferences: -Subframe mounting side, the bushing and sleeve is larger -Trailing arm mounting side, balljoint shank is slightly larger. Similarities: -Length appears to be identical -Balljoint diameter is the same -Swaybar end links appear to be the same As stated previously, the 3si balljoint will need to be pressed into the DSM lower arm to use the 3si trailing arm.
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Re: DSM & 3SI
[Re: Mike Kuttschrutter]
#452760
March 24, 2017 02:16 am UTC
March 24, 2017 02:16 am UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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Looks pretty sweet if you can get a wider flare.
Is this the full subframe or just the trailing arm?
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: DSM & 3SI
[Re: Jeff Mitchell]
#452763
March 24, 2017 08:35 pm UTC
March 24, 2017 08:35 pm UTC
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,241 Stratford/London
Mike Kuttschrutter
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Looks pretty sweet if you can get a wider flare.
Is this the full subframe or just the trailing arm? This is just using the arms. The subframe of a 3si mounts wider on the car and is totally different from a dsm. This project is rad! Are the 3si parts significantly heavier? That spindle looks pretty beefy. Thanks man! The arm alone is a bit heavier. I could try and get a weight difference between the two. It may be about 5lbs... It may not seem like much but I will also have the added weight from the internal ebrakes, slightly longer hub/shaft and the larger vented rotors.
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